Opinion on installing larger sliding door

[RichT]

Not directly a tractor matter, but would appreciate opinion. I have an existing 60" sliding door opening that I'd like to expand to next stud, 76". Attached pic shows upper corner of existing install. I see 2 options with regard to the expansion, replace the header or "extend" it with metal reinforcement and lag bolts. Replacement would necessitate more extensive wallboard removal.

What would you guys do?

 

[jamiec]

It looks as though the header of the slider is holding up that beam in the top left of the picture? Is that a beam that has floor joist on top if it? If that is carring the load of the brown beam then i would definatly replace it with a new header. Realy if it is holding up much weight at all i would replace the header, the only time i wouldnt is if its on a gable wall and not supporting much from above.

 

[RichT]

I should have mentioned that...it is NOT supporting the ceiling beams, or much else that I can see beyond structural integrity of the wall.

 

[ray66v]

Yah, don't 60" sliders suck! If your sure the header is not holding anything up I suppose a really creative steel sleeve, or plate(s) could work. It will never pass any inspection however.

I would take down the drywall and replace the header, (not a big deal).

In lieu of that, how about accessing the header from the outside? I often remove vinyl siding and make structural changes from the outside easier. It can also make fitting the new door to the siding easy. If you can remove the siding and outside sheathing, then remove the outer 1/2 of the header, (if there is a gap between the inside and outside this might not be difficult). Span the opening with a new 76" header on the outside, and splice the inside. Then add spacers between the half's and screw the outside and the inside half's together. Then screw the outer plywood sheathing to the opening. That would give you a fairly solid wall. You may also be able to pull the whole header out from the outside leaving the drywall fairly intact.

 

[RichT]

I understand replacing the header is the best option. Having said that I'm trying to minimize drywall work. Its a stucco house so accessing the header from the outside would require substantial stucco repair. I've added a pic which shows a notional brace arrangement - to attach a header wood extension. The long, center metal piece would extend a couple inches into the headers. This piece would be welded to the four 1/4 plate squares with at least one lag bolt on each plate.

 

[Superduper]

Most exterior openings are load bearing, whether they appear to be or not. The fact that the ceiling joists run parallel to the wall does not necessarily mean it is not load bearing, the roof might exert a load onto this wall. Even if it was not a load bearing wall, other factors need to be considered as well such as shear strength of wall. The shear strength keeps the wall (and home) from racking during earthquakes and heavy wind loads. If the shear strength of the wall is reduced below acceptable levels by the reduction of wall area, then additional special strong-wall panels need to be included into the design to ensure that sufficient shear strength remains.

Admittedly, if the wall has sufficient sheathing, it is not likely that the 16" expansion will reduce the shear strength enough to causing problems and require shoring so if we ignore that, then at the very minimum, you should replace the header with another of adequate size. Note that adequate might mean larger than your current header to account for the additional span and to account for new building codes which might be more restrictive than the code that existed when the home was built.

In short: presuming that there are no shear wall issues, then the only appropriate way to effect this retrofit is to replace the current header with a new one of an appropriate size for this installation. If you possess the skills to replace the header, then the wallboard issue should be relatively minor.

 

[ray66v]

Keep in mind, your going to be holding up the other 60" of header from that end. My "gut" feeling is you need more than that to make sure you don't get any sagging there.
Can you add a plate on the side with 1/8 steel, like 12 inches on each side of the splice and a lot of heavy drywall screws?

 

[Superduper]

It appears that you are located in Southern California, earthquake country. I highly suggest you resist the urge to retrofit the header in this manner. It really is an inappropriate method and will never pass inspection. I understand that stucco is never fun to work on. However, it might be possible for you to remove the existing header by running a long sawzall blade between the header and the exterior sheathing to cut the nails securing it to the sheathing. If there is no exterior sheathing and the stucco mesh is attached directly to the studs, then there is even more reason to do it properly. Should the installation ever fail and someone gets hurt, it could set you up for huge liability problems.

 

[ray66v]

It appears that you are located in Southern California, earthquake country.

Yikes! He has a good point there. If your worried about the drywall dust, it can be mitigated to the point that it is not a factor. I do "dustless" repairs. for people.

 

[RichT]

It appears that you are located in Southern California, earthquake country. I highly suggest you resist the urge to retrofit the header in this manner. It really is an inappropriate method and will never pass inspection. I understand that stucco is never fun to work on. However, it might be possible for you to remove the existing header by running a long sawzall blade between the header and the exterior sheathing to cut the nails securing it to the sheathing. If there is no exterior sheathing and the stucco mesh is attached directly to the studs, then there is even more reason to do it properly. Should the installation ever fail and someone gets hurt, it could set you up for huge liability problems.

Good points, thx. There is exterior sheathing, but I don't know how to tell if its structural or nonstructural (home was built in 1980). So I'll have to figure out how to cut between the studs (to remove)/header and sheathing. I definitely want to avoid having to cut the stucco/sheathing around the header, so I have to remove it from the inside.

My carpentry book says the existing 4x6 header is good to about 6ft. I don't have sufficient clearance to replace with a 4x8. Should I reinforce the 4x6 for a 76" span?

 

[ray66v]

You really need to go back to the beginning and find out if it, (the header), is indeed holding anything up. Because if it is, replacing it will require transferring the weight it is bearing, temporarily, so that you can remove it. Then you can determine what will be necessary as far as size goes.

 

[MarkV]

Rich I am with the crowd that says you need to replace the header. I would consider a 4x6 header to be a minimum for even the 60” opening on an exterior bearing wall. If you don’t have the clearance to jump to a 4x10 header consider engineered lumber like an LVL beam. Local lumber yards, not the box stores, that carry engineered lumber can often size them for you through their computer programs.

MarkV

 

[RichT]

I appreciate everyone's input. I'll be heading down to local lumber yard next week to explore LVL alternative.

 

[davitk]

Hi Rich,

This project may be bigger than you want to tackle yourself, seismic and sheer-wall issues can be real a PITA. When replacing that header, figure an additional 1 1/2" to the left of the opening for a second jack stud, it will move your door casing over 1 1/2" inside and outside (you can go with wider trim on the exterior so you don't have to patch stucco). Remodeling isn't easy..... If it were mine I would seriously consider living with the existing opening, and just install a new same sized door.

 

[Superduper]

Rich, the laminated beams are engineered to be stronger than 2x or 4x lumber of equivalent size. Understand though that they will not be cheap. However, when you say there is not enough room, why is that the case? From your picture, it appears that there are small cripple-studs above the opening. These cripple-studs can be cut or removed/replaced without too much hassle.

If your home was built in 1980, there is an excellent chance that the sheathing between the stucco and studs serve a "structural" purpose. The easiest way that I can think of to remove the existing header with the least disturbance to the exterior are:

(1) After severing the nails on the ends of the header (and any other exposed nail that you can see), pry a little room between the header and sheathing, enough to insert a sawzall. Run the sawzall across which should cut the nails. At that point, the header should come free.

or

(2) Run a circular saw (hd one like a worm drive skillsaw) with nail cutting blade under the header as close to the sheathing as possible. You may need to make several passes, each suceedingly deeper. This should sever most nails to the depth of 2.5." At that point, you can run the skill saw horizontally across the face pf the header on the exposed side. A few taps with hammer and/or pry bar should split the header to the extent that the cut portion can be removed. You can then make a few more horizontal passes with the saw and if the edges are free of nails, you can then remove the header in peices with the nails securing the sheathing only slightly resisting removal. When all is done, you can then cut off any remaining nails protruding from stud side of sheathing with sawzall.

After securing new header in place, remember to reattach exterior sheathing to new header to restore structural shear strength. Unfortunately, this involves screwing (not sheetrock screws) or nailing through stucco but this should minimize stucco repair work, especially if you predrill through stucco first so as not to crack the stucco. A little stucco patch and you should be fine. Just so you know, nailing density for shear wall is quite dense to satisfy code.

I'm sure this is a little more work than you had in mind but it is perfectly doable. Don't let it frighten you. You just have to go out and do it: slowly but surely, it gets done. Rather than figuring out a way to smash the header out of there, think of your job in terms of finding a way to cut all of the nails securing the header instead. Remember, the key to easy removal without smashing the heck out of everything is to cut the nails. Some finesse goes a long way towards making the job easier. These types of jobs are what makes the sawzall such an invaluable tool for demolition and remodels.

 

[RichT]

SuperD
I was planning to use my cordless sawzall to free up the header at the studs. I do have a cordless circ saw with metal cutting blade I could use as an alternative on the sheathing nails. Obviously I'll need to remove the existing door/frame to get the needed access. Had planned to cut the header a segment at a time and pry away from sheathing (as you mentioned). Can you recommend what type of screws to reattach the sheathing to the header? Definitely a little more work, but I'm coming off replacing all my 20yr old alum frame windows with dual pane vinyl retrofits and, in the process, gained quite a bit of experience working with stucco. Now I'll get to learn drywall skills.

davitk
I did consider a same size replacement, but several factors weighed against it, not the least of which is the wife's serious unhappiness with the existing small slider. I believe if I carefully replace the header with an engineered piece and secure it as superd has suggested, things should work out ok.

 

[Superduper]

RichT, I mentioned that you should not use sheetrock/multipurpose screws simply because they are probably the most commonly used screw out there. They have virtually no shear strength. You should use construction grade screws. Lumberyards should definitely have them. The box stores have them but the clerk there might not know what you are talking about. For the most part they look like these:

RSS Structural Screw - GRK Fasteners - The Industry's Toughest Screws

As for using a battery powered tool, I personally think you'll be disappointed with their performance for this application. Chances are, you'll work for 3 or 4 minutes, then need to recharge for an hour. Power is going to be lacking too. If you pick up a corded tool (rent if you need to), you'll be much happier. As for removing the header in pieces, I think you're getting the idea. Those sheathing nails (quite small actually) are very tenacious when there are 50 of then. It's almost impossible to pry the pieces apart in this manner. By splitting the header up into smaller peices, you'll be trying to pry away peices held by 1 or 2 nails instead of 50 nails, a much easier job and far easier to preserve the integrity of the existing sheathing and stucco (which you are trying to preserve). Taking it a little at a time, you'll do just fine though no question it will be time consuming. Good luck.

 

[RichT]

However, when you say there is not enough room, why is that the case? From your picture, it appears that there are small cripple-studs above the opening. These cripple-studs can be cut or removed/replaced without too much hassle.

Yes, the cripples are there, but the ceiling beams extend through the wall to support the roof over an outside alcove/patio. There is only about an inch of clearance between three of the ceiling beams and door header.

I use the Makita 18v lithium ion portables - they last pretty good. Thx for the fastener link. Should I drill a pilot in the sheathing?

 

[MarkV]

Rich I am still having a problem understanding the over all design of the wall and beams above the header. Is there a chance you can take a photo of a wider view of the door and the area past the door the beams go into? Normally with a house that has 8’ walls there is room to use 2x10’s for header material above doors on exterior walls. In your case you say the exposed beams, like the one in the photo’s, run through the wall to the outside and only leave about a 1” above the existing header. What is carrying these beams if they are not resting on the header yet are still below the top plate of the wall?

If the beams are load bearing and continue through the wall to support another ceiling area it is possible the wall you are working on is not load bearing. That would explain why the original header is smaller than I would have expected. If that is the case your project would become considerably easier. Give us a little more information maybe you can save a lot of work.

MarkV

 

[davitk]

Rich I am still having a problem understanding the over all design of the wall and beams above the header. Is there a chance you can take a photo of a wider view of the door and the area past the door the beams go into? Normally with a house that has 8 walls there is room to use 2x10痴 for header material above doors on exterior walls. In your case you say the exposed beams, like the one in the photo痴, run through the wall to the outside and only leave about a 1 above the existing header. What is carrying these beams if they are not resting on the header yet are still below the top plate of the wall?

If the beams are load bearing and continue through the wall to support another ceiling area it is possible the wall you are working on is not load bearing. That would explain why the original header is smaller than I would have expected. If that is the case your project would become considerably easier. Give us a little more information maybe you can save a lot of work.

MarkV

....or the header is supporting the beam which is supporting the floor joists which are supporting a second story wall which is supporting ?