Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.

[mjncad]

The economy may suck right now; but I still need to think about designing the future home on our 35-acres. I don't want to do the temporary mobile home routine; therefore the plan is to put up the outbuilding first to act as a field office, shop and materials storage building. I plan to have a bathroom with a shower, and a mechanical/electrical room in addition to the office. I'd like to get some opinions on what I'm thinking of doing out there.

The shop area would be heated with natural gas fired radiant heaters hung from the roof structure.

I'm planning on using a tankless water heater for the outbuilding's hot water needs.

The mechanical/electrical room would house the pressure tank and any water treatment equipment I may need for the well water. I am thinking of sizing the pressure tank and treatment equipment to serve the outbuilding and the house so as not to buy two of everything. The downsides that present themselves immediately would be potential adverse pressure drop from the outbuilding to the house, water volume issues, larger equipment may cost more than two smaller units (one for the outbuilding and one for the house); and the mechanical/electrical room and bathroom need to be minimally heated for freeze protection. However, these rooms will need heat since there will be water there anyway. Also, an alarm and/or monitoring system going to the house may be required to alert me to any problems since I doubt I'll be in the outbuilding everyday once the house is done.

Also I'm still figuring out what would be an energy efficient way to heat and cool the office, bathroom and mechanical/electrical rooms.

I was thinking of using in-floor radiant heating/cooling; but have pretty much decided against that for the shop area as I want to be able to drill holes in the concrete to mount power tools if need be. Yes, I could make sure I do an accurate as-built drawing, and the PEX tubing could be wire traced for electronic detection; but this seems more trouble than itｴs worth.

The county doesn't require residential fire suppression systems; but I also have thought about a cistern to store potable water and do double duty as a firewater storage tank. This would entail more pumps; but could give the well pump more rest than the traditional well to pump to pressure tank system. Then again replacing or repairing a tired well pump may be less money overall than using a cistern based system.

Any thoughts, opinions, etc are most appreciated.

Thanks,

 

[SnowRidge]

Consider passive solar heating if you have a southern exposure.

I have had well pressure tanks in outbuildings (only) in two places I have owned. I have had no water pressure or volume issues inside the houses. Just use good sized pipe between the two structures to keep friction losses to a minimum.

 

[MarkV]

My first question would be how far is the house from the shop. If the distance is not to great you can run both off of one pressure tank. Your pressure tank has more to do with keeping the well pump from cycling each time there is a small demand, fill a glass of water, than anything else. If your two areas are distant, it may well be cheaper to “T” the well line and have a tank in each building.

Have you checked your local codes, if any? What people here run into is that when a bathroom goes into a barn it then becomes a space that can be lived in. That changes the building code requirements, insurance and tax base for the structure. Sometimes a deal breaker.

By far the biggest cost savings will be if you can locate the barn and house to use the same septic system and size the system for both. Even areas without building codes often require a permit for septic so the days of a 55 gal. drum hooked to some drain tile for a barn bath are almost gone.

To heat the barn/office space you will get the most bang for the buck with insulation in my opinion. Build your space to accommodate as much insulation as you can and your heating will be minimal. Don’t forget foam insulation under the slab.

Electric supply is something else to consider at this time. Are your building locations such that you can run off of one service? You will want to size that service for the demands of both buildings. If not practical you will end up like me with a service meter that cost $22 minimum per month so I can turn lights on in an outbuilding once a week.

Well you ask for thoughts and those are a few. Having gone through the process several times I can tell you the more you have planned in advance the better. Good luck.

MarkV

 

[mjncad]

Mark:

I appreciate your insights and please see my responses interspersed into your original comments.

Matt

My first question would be how far is the house from the shop. If the distance is not to great you can run both off of one pressure tank. Your pressure tank has more to do with keeping the well pump from cycling each time there is a small demand, fill a glass of water, than anything else. If your two areas are distant, it may well be cheaper to 典 the well line and have a tank in each building. The outbuilding and house (attached garage) will be 40' apart at their closest points. However the basement mechanical room will be another 30'+/- away.

Have you checked your local codes, if any? What people here run into is that when a bathroom goes into a barn it then becomes a space that can be lived in. That changes the building code requirements, insurance and tax base for the structure. Sometimes a deal breaker. The county has no problem with a bathroom and an office as long as there is not a permanent closet, which would make it a bedroom. Also, kitchens are not allowed.

By far the biggest cost savings will be if you can locate the barn and house to use the same septic system and size the system for both. Even areas without building codes often require a permit for septic so the days of a 55 gal. drum hooked to some drain tile for a barn bath are almost gone. I'm planning on using one septic system for both buildings, and have done preliminary sizing based on that criteria. I also have two leach field locations in mind in case the health department rejects my primary location. When I had the drill rig and geologist out to do soil samples for the foundation, I had him run percolation tests on both leach field locations.

To heat the barn/office space you will get the most bang for the buck with insulation in my opinion. Build your space to accommodate as much insulation as you can and your heating will be minimal. Don稚 forget foam insulation under the slab. I am thinking of 2" of extruded polystyrene under the slab.

Electric supply is something else to consider at this time. Are your building locations such that you can run off of one service? You will want to size that service for the demands of both buildings. If not practical you will end up like me with a service meter that cost $22 minimum per month so I can turn lights on in an outbuilding once a week. I am planning on running a 200-amp service for the house and a 200-amp service for the outbuilding.

Well you ask for thoughts and those are a few. Having gone through the process several times I can tell you the more you have planned in advance the better. Good luck.

MarkV

 

[GBeck]

have you considered advanced framing? basically it's just using 2x6 and they are spaced 24 inches apart rather then 16 with the 2x4. it allows for more insulation, and you use less lumber, etc, etc

 

[mjncad]

GBeck:

I'm leaning towards a steel building; but I have not ruled out wood frame construction regardless of whether it uses traditional 16" O.C. studs or 24".

This is the reason I'm seeking opinions from members who've been there, done that and I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[jdmar]

70' for water is nothing. I run 950' with 2" pipe. I doubt you even need a second pressure tank in the house even though many do this.

You are smart doing one septic. But keep in mind that the GOV has a habit of changing its mind/restriction very often and fast in this area. Make sure you have room to add a few more runs or put in an aerator to start in case their criteria change between building the barn/septic and completing the house.

2" foam should give about R-10 depending on your exact foam product. This is good for radiant or regluar heated space. also put the board on inside and outside of foundation below the slab. For radiant, the most important area is the edge of the slab (yep, that little 4" high area) near the walls. The slab can loose a lot of heat there. You may want to look at denser foam under slabs in the barn. Most box stores carry formular 1500 but you can get denser board for great load bearing (formular 200, 400, etc.). ALso, there are some variations on how/where you put the foam if you do solar radiant...basically you get the insulation value but increase the thermal mass also...ask if interested.

Caution running two separate 200 services...one may be billed as commercial rate. I ran into that with my barn. Had to use commercial meter socket. ANd I have to pay 14 cents per KW/hoosiwhatever instead of the 11 cents I pay at the house. the "AG" rate is the same 14 cents. Talk to the electric company or local electrician about a large main service then a 200 amp "little 'ol sub panel" for your "second" service in the house or barn. I am just try to save you money if able here.

I would SERIOUSLY consider more modern and efficient building techniques. Look into SIPS and ICFs. What you spend extra to build you save more each month on utilities. Most builders offer their "caulk and seal" packages with standard 2x4 or even 2x6 construction. But these do not get anywhere near the efficiency of newer practices. The mentioned 2x6 with 24" OC spacing is good but even that is not good as SIP/ICF/etc. If you do traditional framing make sure you sheath either inside or outside with continuous foam to stop thermal bridging at each stud. Also the mentioned passive solar is a great idea. Even spray foam does not compare. I have both framed with spray foam and radiant foam board structures and SIPS structure...SIPs blow the foam away hands down in efficiency, rigidity, and are amazingly quiet. Most ICFs are even better.

Also look into alternatinve heating/cooling. since you have the land look into geothermal/ biomass furnace/ solar/ etc. These do cost more to install...but what they add when put into a mortgage they save even more on the monthly utilities...ie they save money from day one...not a 10 year payback. Also, the feds now (2009) allow you to take about 30% of your total solar (and some other) expenses directly off your tax bill. The $2000 max dissappears in '09! Many states also offer rebates...up to 50%(most don't get that much) in Ohio for solar.

I would not let potential drilling into a radiant slab stop you from using radiant. It is very comfortable and quiet heat...and in a high ceilinged barn can save some good money. If you tie every12" to wire mesh you can be sure where to drill and not to drill. I als placed some J bolts in the slab and tie down pints when I put in my radiant barn slab. Planning ahead and measuring is worht the time to get the pleasure of radiant. The first time you lay on the ground under your tractor you wil smile at your decision!

Hope this helps...sorry it is long. I have just been doing alot of energy saving work and research the last few years. It is amazing how much can be done with a few dollars and some extra planning.

Peter

 

[thunderworks]

I built a 40 X 60 shop about 100' from our house location. All of the power comes first to the shop, then underground to the house. I wanted the meter and all the power company stuff on the shop building, not the house - strictly an aesthetic decision. I have one meter for both the shop (I'm a furniture maker) and the house. I installed 3 different conduit connections between the house - one for power, one for phone, computers etc., and one still unused for who knows what. The capacity was cheap to install during construction.

One feature of my shop, a wood framed, steel sided structure, is that I framed between the posts to allow the structure to be sheeted with 3/4 plywood. I used blown-in insulation ("bib system") which is 7" thick. The posts are 5 1/2", the horizontal purlins (maybe not the right term) that hang the steel are 1 1/2 thick, so together they permitted 7" of insulation. The plywood sheeting makes the structure incredibly rigid. The blown insulation puts a little pressure on the steel, so the net result is that the building is rigid, tight, and unbelievably quiet.

 

[MarkV]

I built a 40 X 60 shop about 100' from our house location. All of the power comes first to the shop, then underground to the house. I wanted the meter and all the power company stuff on the shop building, not the house - strictly an aesthetic decision. I have one meter for both the shop (I'm a furniture maker) and the house. I installed 3 different conduit connections between the house - one for power, one for phone, computers etc., and one still unused for who knows what. The capacity was cheap to install during construction.

One feature of my shop, a wood framed, steel sided structure, is that I framed between the posts to allow the structure to be sheeted with 3/4 plywood. I used blown-in insulation ("bib system") which is 7" thick. The posts are 5 1/2", the horizontal purlins (maybe not the right term) that hang the steel are 1 1/2 thick, so together they permitted 7" of insulation. The plywood sheeting makes the structure incredibly rigid. The blown insulation puts a little pressure on the steel, so the net result is that the building is rigid, tight, and unbelievably quiet.

I have considered the same setup as your shop. Although the 3/4 ply is expensive for an interior finish it adds greatly to the structural integrity of the building and allows almost anything to be attached inside.

Did you blow in insulation in lifts as you added layers of Ply? Also wondered if you added a moisture barrier to the outside before blowing insulation? Sounds like a nice place to work.

MarkV

 

[AlanB]

A random thought, you could just preplan your floor pot locations and give them wide berth with the PEX.