Orangeburg Sewer Pipe problem

[JB4310]

I just discovered this thread late, glad to hear it's all taken care of.

I just can't believe they used the orangeburg for sanitary sewer, never seen that before. I have seen it for septic system leech fields, but every piece of orangeburg pipe I've ever encountered underground was deformed, some in as little as 20 years. Mostly used around here for residential storm water management, I have seen it under basement floors for perforated footing drains and it seems to hold up in that application fine.

I've never seen anything other than 4" orangeberg, perforated and solid. Supposedly they made it from 2" to 18"

Just googled it to learn a little more, Bituminized fiber pipe, made from wood fiber and coal-tar pitch, which would explain it's poor structural integrity. I see it was used for sewer laterals in many locations, but as far as I now not around here, and I know alot of contractors that do sewer work.
We went from clay to plastic, still alot of clay sewers around here, replaced when necessary, but they hold up well, some close to 100 years old and 36" in diameter.

JB

 

[ultrarunner]

I just discovered this thread late, glad to hear it's all taken care of.

I just can't believe they used the orangeburg for sanitary sewer, never seen that before. I have seen it for septic system leech fields, but every piece of orangeburg pipe I've ever encountered underground was deformed, some in as little as 20 years. Mostly used around here for residential storm water management, I have seen it under basement floors for perforated footing drains and it seems to hold up in that application fine.

I've never seen anything other than 4" orangeberg, perforated and solid. Supposedly they made it from 2" to 18"

Just googled it to learn a little more, Bituminized fiber pipe, made from wood fiber and coal-tar pitch, which would explain it's poor structural integrity. I see it was used for sewer laterals in many locations, but as far as I now not around here, and I know alot of contractors that do sewer work.
We went from clay to plastic, still alot of clay sewers around here, replaced when necessary, but they hold up well, some close to 100 years old and 36" in diameter.

JB

Home was built in 1956 back when Orangeburg was popular here in my California City...

In general, it was only to be used for laterals when used for Sanitary Sewers. The builder must have really liked it because it continued under my attached two-car garage and I didn't want to dig up a perfectly good concrete floor and I also didn't want to do only a partial replacement.

I've come across Clay, ABS, HDPE, Cement Asbestos, Orangeburg, Cast Iron, Copper, Galvanized and even Redwood pipe in Santa Cruz once...

The new regs are going to keep the sewer guys very busy for years... can't sell a home without a Sewer Inspection and clean bill of health... the only lines that have a chance on passing are ABS, HDPE and sometimes Cast Iron... although rarely.

What they do is block the line and pressurize it and watch for leak-down... pressure testing is something older lines were never designed for.

The one copper line was in an old estate... the sewer guys joked and said whenever they find copper they fail it, remove and replace with plastic and stop at the scrap metal yard on the way home...

It's kind of ironic because the oldest and most deteriorated sewer lines are owned by the city...

 

[ultrarunner]

I did learn a few things...

The HDPE will stretch as it is being pulled into place... the plumber said it can shrink several inches on a long run after it cools and the pipe "Memory" kicks in. They actually beat on the end of the pipe to help with shrinkage.

A few things I learned.

The pipe run doesn't have to be 100% straight... small variations and bends are OK.

About 18" minimum below grade to the center line of the run is required on the end with the pulling head...

I was all set to back fill the trench at the main and learned that I needed to wait till the rain water subsided... otherwise the weight of the back fill material would cause the line to sag in the wet soft earth.

The rubber couplings they use are 4 band, 80 psi rated... the HDPE is 100 psi rated with heat welded joints.

The Pipe comes in 20 and 40' lengths...

The rig runs between 30 and 40k for 4" line replacement.

The bursting head can go through just about anything except pipe encased in concrete...

Up-sizing generally isn't a problem... especially from 4 to 6 inches...

Code now requires the pipe to be light gray in color instead of black... the reason is much better contrast when taking pictures inside the line with the light gray color.

 

[valley]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread.

About 20 years ago a friend living in Santa Cruz California solved a neighbor hood problem, the sanitary line failed for several houses near the lighthouse. He, a retired plumber, found in the city records the path of the line. He said that knowing the year it was installed it would be for sure Orangeburg. The line was dug up, it was Orangeburg, it was replaced. This was Nick Rich retired plumber living still ,I pray, in the Octogon near the lighthouse.

 

[JB4310]

The new regs are going to keep the sewer guys very busy for years... can't sell a home without a Sewer Inspection and clean bill of health... the only lines that have a chance on passing are ABS, HDPE and sometimes Cast Iron... although rarely.

What they do is block the line and pressurize it and watch for leak-down... pressure testing is something older lines were never designed for.

It's kind of ironic because the oldest and most deteriorated sewer lines are owned by the city...

Wow, so if the pressure test fails the house sewer has to be repaired/replaced :confused2:

That would be every house around here more than 45 years old with clay house sewers to the street.

Are those new regs based on environmental concerns?? or excess ground water infiltration into the sewer system/ treatment plant.

The ground water infiltration has been the issue around here, and they have been relining the sanitary sewers in the street, but no burden on the private property owners to make any repairs.

Around here the sewer pipe in the house was 4 inch, cast iron. Now pvc or abs. plastic, as soon as it exits the house it has to be 6 inch pvc minimum

JB

 

[Artisan]

The mandates to test and fix sewer lines is from sound evidence that sewer leakage, leeching of sewage into water tables causes great harm. Medicines can be found in urine, now that leeches into your drinking water, or the water your kids will drink. Bad it is. The test is usually 10' of head of water on a line creating 5 lbs pressure (approx) or 5 lbs pressure or air. An inspector will usually let you get by w/ just filling the sewer less a head of water.
The mark ups the plumbers are making are not excessive at all. That 50K worth of machinery has to be paid for and maintained. The pipe used has royalities that must be paid as well. Employees must be paid well or they start their own business's. 1 Million liability insurance, workmens comp, fuel ins on and on and on . The plumber protects the health and welfare of the nation. The wannabe, know-it-all, pretend plumbers, destroy it...usually unknowingly.
I am very glad to see you fixed it right, I might need to drink that water some day or the food I eat might be watered from a water table now protected.

 

[JB4310]

Pharmaceuticals are found in surface bodies of water down stream from sewage treatment plants. Yes this is a problem we are just now learning about, but those elevated levels are due to the fact that all the waste water from the entire geographic area serviced by that plant is concentrated at the plant. The drugs are not broken down with normal sewage treatment techniques, and are then being discharged into the tributaries with the treated water.

The trace amounts that might be lost on the way thru the sewer line would be minuscule at most and almost certainly not be a threat to drinking water supplies, without a very vivid imagination.

Sewage leaking from pipes should have little adverse effects on drinking water supplies as well, since most municipalities that have sewer service would have city water. and considering the fact that areas that don't have city sewer or water would have septic systems and drinking water wells on the same lot with historicaly, little ill effects.

JB

 

[Artisan]

Well I guess I have a very vivid imagination, as do the powers that be that are demanding an almost no tolerance in sewage water getting into drinking water. Leech fields and Ceptic tanks and the like have only been around for what, 80 years or so, maybe a little better? Let's call it 100, OK? That is NOT enough time for X to seep into Y in Many areas. In a nutshell your saying a little bit of sewage in your cup O tea is OK. I can't get behind that thinking, ever.

 

[JB4310]

Well I guess I have a very vivid imagination, as do the powers that be that are demanding an almost no tolerance in sewage water getting into drinking water. Leech fields and Ceptic tanks and the like have only been around for what, 80 years or so, maybe a little better? Let's call it 100, OK? That is NOT enough time for X to seep into Y in Many areas. In a nutshell your saying a little bit of sewage in your cup O tea is OK. I can't get behind that thinking, ever.

I'm saying you most likely wont get sewage in your tea, but I surely don't know the situation in all geographic areas.

The fact that septic systems have been around that long around here with no evidence of contaminated drinking water is my evidence, for this area anyway. and why I believe the little waste water that is lost thru a sewer line that wont hold pressure is a non issue IMO.

JB

 

[JB4310]

I'm saying you most likely wont get sewage in your tea, but I surely don't know the situation in all geographic areas.

JB

The differences due to location couldn't be more at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like I mentioned in post #25 we are spending countless millions of dollars to prevent filtered, clean ground water from getting into our municipal sewer system. There is an environmental benefit to that, as to much storm water at the plant prevents proper treatment and often overwhelms the plant during heavy rain events.

Regarding the pressure test for your sewers, consider this, in an average sewer pipe that was installed properly the flow is on the bottom 1/4 of the pipe, (on a 6 inch house sewer it is actually much less) so the only part of the pipe that could leak into the soil is that small percentage at the bottom.

But you are subjecting the whole pipe to the test obviously, so 75% of the pipe that is out of the flow, could be blowing the test but could have no effect on it leaching out.
Plus any slight defects in the part of the pipe where the flow is, that could cause a leak, would be filled with scum anyway.

So yeah great mandate for the sewer contractors, bad for the property owners and very tiny, I would say near zero benefit to the environment.

JB

 

[Artisan]

Nope...

The arguement that the flow is only on the bottom is wrong. Sewers fill, for multitudes of reasons. There out of sight and you do not see it usually. If there is a stoppage anywhere, even downstream in the street, your sewer fills, thus the top portions will leak if invalid. If the neighbor has piped storm water into the sewer (stupid) then when it rains sewers can flood as well, inflow is disasterous to sewer systems. Some municipalities allow it, they are few and far apart.
Additionally the sewer must be 100% valid to retain sewer gases. You know, airborn disease carrying fumes? What you do not know is sewer gases can and usually do eat the top of old metalic piping. The top of metalic pipes is usually the first to go! Believe it! All sewers must be solid and hold water to 5psi, period. There is absolutely no arguement that will change this no matter how hard your try. None! Keeping the populous healthy is priority #1. Your arguements, basically your saying it is ok for a few leaks here and there would kill us all eventually if everyone had the same ideas. The ONLY reason humans have prospered and are able to live so many in so close proxmitiy is the advent of plumbing, plumbing that works, not plumbing that is sub-standard and leaks, which can lead to adverse health issues!

 

[JB4310]

Nope...

The arguement that the flow is only on the bottom is wrong. Sewers fill, for multitudes of reasons. There out of sight and you do not see it usually. If there is a stoppage anywhere, even downstream in the street, your sewer fills, thus the top portions will leak if invalid. If the neighbor has piped storm water into the sewer (stupid) then when it rains sewers can flood as well, inflow is disasterous to sewer systems. Some municipalities allow it, they are few and far apart.
Additionally the sewer must be 100% valid to retain sewer gases. You know, airborn disease carrying fumes? What you do not know is sewer gases can and usually do eat the top of old metalic piping. The top of metalic pipes is usually the first to go! Believe it! All sewers must be solid and hold water to 5psi, period. There is absolutely no arguement that will change this no matter how hard your try. None! Keeping the populous healthy is priority #1. Your arguements, basically your saying it is ok for a few leaks here and there would kill us all eventually if everyone had the same ideas. The ONLY reason humans have prospered and are able to live so many in so close proxmitiy is the advent of plumbing, plumbing that works, not plumbing that is sub-standard and leaks, which can lead to adverse health issues!

Well I tried to make a legitimate argument based on my experience but sounds like you are not willing to accept any deviation, so I will stop.

I will say we are talking about house sewers and 99.9% of the time the flow is on the bottom 25% of the pipe at most. I know sewers back up, but house sewers quickly recede at 1-3% pitch. Main trunk sewers are a different storey at 0.1 % pitch of course.

As far as the inflow goes, I live in an area where there is a huge amount of storm water entering the sanitary sewer system. This is a 100 year old system in the city, which now branches out to several suburban towns. I work on basement drainage systems and most of the homes still have combination drains, some of the streets storm drains, until just recently shared the same sewer!

So I know all about surging and backing up sewer systems. It's kind of foolish to line the main sewers to stop ground water inflow, when the vast majority of the storm water is getting in there from residential discharge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AOsgj7P7M

Our sewer district at one time tried to police it and stop it, but it is so prevalent that they gave up for now, and got 1.5 billion dollars to play with over the next 20 years.

JB

 

[dodge man]

I've never heard of requiring a home owner pressure test sewer pipes. Thats just crazy. I work in the civil engineering buisness, so regs like this don't suprise me. My questions is, how the heck do you pressure test a sewer service going to a house? You would have to dig up the sewer main and plug it there, and then you would have to somehow plug it off at the house, which may or may not require digging. Sounds like a lot of wasted money to me.

Open your newpaper and look for a story about someone that died from sewage getting in their drinking water. Than look for the number of people that died in car crashes. Where should we be spending the money?

 

[JB4310]

I've never heard of requiring a home owner pressure test sewer pipes. Thats just crazy. I work in the civil engineering buisness, so regs like this don't suprise me. My questions is, how the heck do you pressure test a sewer service going to a house? You would have to dig up the sewer main and plug it there, and then you would have to somehow plug it off at the house, which may or may not require digging. Sounds like a lot of wasted money to me.

Open your newpaper and look for a story about someone that died from sewage getting in their drinking water. Than look for the number of people that died in car crashes. Where should we be spending the money?

Good question, they probably snake an expandable bladder down the line and inflate it to close the pipe.

I have seen them pressure test a homes sewer and vent system using the bladder right at the exit of the house. They wanted me to fill my entire system to the roof vent with water, with all the drains plugged. I was holding my breath thinking about my 75 year old cast iron and threaded brass drain pipes in the walls of my completely renovated house, but in the end the inspector just looked at some of the new work we did and was satisfied.

JB

 

[ultrarunner]

A couple of additional comments.

The test is routinely done with a Weenie... an expandable bladder used to block the end of the lateral and another at the clean-out or where the house line joins the lateral... A camera that also works with an underground detector will show exact location and how many feet out to the lateral to the main connection.

Property owner's are responsible for the connection at the Main... so this can get very costly quickly if the city main needs to be sectioned and replaced.

The test can cost as much as $1000 and is part of the property record...

They say cost should come down as competition gears up.

The case for this starts with the SF Bay... during times of heavy rain, the treatment plants are inundated and overwhelmed by volume that may result in raw, untreated discharge to the Bay.

There is zero commercial AG in the city or nearby areas...

Main line overflows are common in normal weather... thousands of gallons an hour can back-up into the storm drains that empty into creeks.

Many years ago, the city would annually treat all their old lines with a product called Angus that kept clay lines root free... since this procedure was halted... old clay lines may stop a couple of times a year... there can be a lot of flow in 8 and 10" mains.

By far, the biggest problems found with a year of smoke testing data is very few cross connections... mostly old city brick and clay mains are the problem...

There are between 425 to 450k people living here... each home now pays $25 a month for sewer main repair and maintenance... totally separate from sewage treatment fees which are based on the number of gallons of water that flows through individual property water meters...

 

[JB4310]

Property owner's are responsible for the connection at the Main... so this can get very costly quickly if the city main needs to be sectioned and replaced.

...

Ouch!
Around here the metropolitan district owns and maintains the sewer right up to the property line, that's what we refer to as the lateral.

So the home owner is only liable for the portion on his property. Yes the portion near the main is very expensive to repair especially considering the fact it's usually under the middle of the road, beneath all the other utilities.
Very expensive.

Our sewer commission is pretty good about not nickle and diming us, we don't even have a sewer charge of any kind, of course it's payed for some how through our taxes. But they are very good, will come out day or night if there is a break or a blockage. they don't get out the tape measure if it's close to the property line, they just fix it. the same goes for our water service.

The same entity that maintains the sanitary sewer system delivers our potable water. I'm not sure if that's common for other municipalities???

JB

 

[ultrarunner]

Ouch!
Around here the metropolitan district owns and maintains the sewer right up to the property line, that's what we refer to as the lateral.

So the home owner is only liable for the portion on his property. Yes the portion near the main is very expensive to repair especially considering the fact it's usually under the middle of the road, beneath all the other utilities.
Very expensive.

Our sewer commission is pretty good about not nickle and diming us, we don't even have a sewer charge of any kind, of course it's payed for some how through our taxes. But they are very good, will come out day or night if there is a break or a blockage. they don't get out the tape measure if it's close to the property line, they just fix it. the same goes for our water service.

The same entity that maintains the sanitary sewer system delivers our potable water. I'm not sure if that's common for other municipalities???

JB

It comes as a shock to many and with the new regs... many more will soon be shocked.

The city owns the mains, the property owner is responsible for connecting to the main wherever that is (Subject to some Distance Restrictions) and this includes excavation, road repair, etc..

The Sanitation District is responsible for Waste Treatment.

Had a lateral at a commercial property with the main under a State Highway... talk about red-tape and cost! Also the concrete highway bed had to be restored plus the blacktop... City, Sanitation, County and State Inspectors all watching a couple of guys with shovels and a Backhoe...

Unfortunately, this is very common here... we pay a lot for services through fees and taxes and are still on the hook...

Way off topic... property owners are responsible for the city sidewalk and curb adjacent to their property... so if someone trips on a city sidewalk pushed up by a city tree... the property owner is on the hook for liability and the cost to repair the sidewalk even though the property line is often 5 feet from the sidewalk.

The older I get, the more I appreciate county living... much more straightforward... property owners are responsible for more, but they are not under the illusion paying hundreds or thousands of dollars each year will take them off the hook... as city dwellers falsely believe.