organic farmers?

[candersen10]

I don't really think organic even means much given all the marketing. My belief is that locally grown food is always preferable, especially when it's locally grown conventional produce as opposed to organic produce grown in California.

With my sweetcorn, i have found that a hilling attachment mounted on a cultivating tractor allows for nearly perfect weed control. I don't mean that there are no weeds at all in my corn fields, but the amount of weeds does not harm my crop. I have around 6 acres of sweet corn and can easily get 4,000 ears of corn per week out of the crop. Parasitic wasps have also proved to be extremely effective against corn borer worms in my experience.

 

[Spiveyman]

I think this would be great and would cut the middlemen out of the local beef market. They are the ones that take the money home. The calf producers, like any base level farmers, typically get the short end of the stick.

That's exactly what I'm doing. Started a beef company with a friend where we raise, slaughter, and sell the beef. No middle man, unless you count the grocery store. We started out selling in a local food co-op where everything is organic. People are always asking if we're organic, we say, "Nope, it's insane to get certified organic, but we raise them naturally, ASH Free." That means no systematic antibiotics, steriods, or hormones, and no animal byproducts in the feed. That seems to be good enough for 99.9% of the consumers we talk to. For us, "organic" isn't worth it. Wouldn't increase sales to offset the losses.

The problem with local, mixed feed, 'organic' beef is that it simply does not taste as good as serious steroid laden, stall kept, corn fed beef. It is not as tender and is a little gamey. I have read, however, that as the organic fad rolls on, people are aquiring a taste for this type of beef and that a market is developing and good restaurants are featuring it. If you can get people to pay more for tougher beef, well, that's just good marketing! The ironic thing is that if this organic beef is leaner (less marbling) then it may be the one organic product that will have easy to prove health benefits.

Not so! Our beef are grass fed, we may give a miniscule amount of grain (corn/soybeen hull) for handling purposes so we can lead them and not have to drive them, but for all practical purposes they are grass fed. We don't "fatten" them up on grain before slaughter. Everyone we've sold to, both in the co-op and people we've sold to as freezer beef have said it's the best beef they've ever had. We're raising Texas Longhorns, so that helps with the beef taste, but what you taste is beef not fat and people are loving that. The secret to taste is letting the animals get a little older before slaugher (>20 months). Naturally produced beef can be tender too, that has more to do with the animal's temperment, and how the beef is aged. We age our beef for 14 days and you can cut the sirloins with a butter knife. Commercial cattle folk want the animals fat, fast, and dead quick so they can maximize through put, but the quality comes from taking your time with them. It can be done.

 

[Spiveyman]

Hey, just thought of another neat idea, my partner's neighbor grows worms, and sells the casings at amazingly high prices to other farmers. That stuff is better than miracle grow. Basketball sized tomatoes!!!! OK, well close anyways. It sounds funny, but they guy is making some decent money on that. A 4 acre worm farm would crank out some.... uh... worm casings.

 

[Egon]

The problem with local, mixed feed, 'organic' beef is that it simply does not taste as good as serious steroid laden, stall kept, corn fed beef. It is not as tender and is a little gamey.

Balderdash!!! Balderdash and again Balderdash

 

[N80]

Spiveyman, Egon, say what you will but I've tatsed it all (well, I've never had Kobe beef), and I've had more than my share of grass fed beef, and in my opinion it just is not as good as a piece of grade A prime, steroids and all. And believe me, I'm not averse to gamey meat. I grew up on venison and still eat a lot of it. So gamey is not an issue for me. But when its time to rank the beef in order, grass fed is bringing up the rear.

And it is not just me. Bon Apetit (the cooking magazine) reviewed four different types of 'organic' beef and only liked one of them.

But, there's no accounting for taste, as they say. And don't get me wrong, when my sister in law is cooking one of their grass fed steaks and invites me for dinner I do not turn it down, and I like it. But if someone asked me to choose between grade A, inorganic prime rib and agrass fed prime rib, well, not only can I tell the difference, but there's no contest. Obviously the difference is much less noticeable with ground beef.

 

[N80]

Spiveyman, I would be very interested in hearing more about your operation and how my B-I-L might apply it to his. I do not think he is interested in or capable of handling the slaughtering aspect. Do you do that yourself? What type of facility do you have? What sort of volume? What sort of regulatory headaches?

And I agree with you, folks in this area would not care that much about certified organic but the 'no ASH' thing would be a minor selling point and easy enough to achieve. I thik just selling whole or halves of cows to individuals would be the way my B-I-L could break into this. A little regional advertising would be all that he would need. He wouldn't have to change much in the way of his facilities. And I think if a cow got sick and needed antibiotics, you'd just put it back in with the regular herd.

Can you worm these 'non-ASH' cows? Ivermectin in other words? Around here I think it is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't consider Ivermectin to be an antibiotic per se. It is an anti-helminthic and is also technically not systemic.

Do you worry, or care, about what goes into your hay in regard to your no-ASH designation? My B-I-L uses turkey manure for fertilizer. I'm sure it is not 'organic' turkey pooh.

Does the calves mother have to be no-ASH for the calf to be sold as no-ASH?

Any pointers you can pass along would be greatly appreciated. This is something that he is getting more interested in as a way to diversify a little and augment his income. As far as I can tell it wouldn't add much in the way of additional cost or time.

 

[candersen10]

I think your dislike of grass fed beef may have more to do with preparation than with the quality of the meat. Grass fed beef must be cooked rare to medium rare and at a lower temperature than conventional beef. It must never be thawed in a microwave and should instead be brought to room temperature in warm water.

It is certainly true that grass fed beef can be terrible, much like conventional beef can be terrible. However, the beef I've had from grass fed small frame beef cows has been the best beef I've ever had. Grass fed beef done correctly is tender, juicy, and does not have any gamy taste, at least in my experience. It is also healthier according to everything I've ever read.

 

[Spiveyman]

...I've tasted it all... ...and in my opinion it just is not as good as a piece of grade A prime, steroids and all.

First of all, I've seen tons of studies out there, well documented, about the effect of feed on the taste of the beef. And yes, pretty much every time the grass fed stuff seems to be found lacking compared to grain fed beef. Also, the flavor of grass fed beef will fluctuate throughout the year as the foliage changes. You certainly get more consistency in the taste with grain fed. It's the same all the time. One thing to note, the degree of doneness of the meat was reported as the bigest factor in taste.

Now all that aside, you haven't tasted it all, because you haven't had MY beef! Have you had Texas Longhorn beef, raised naturally on KY bluegrass for 20 months, hung for 14 days, seasoned lightly and cooked to perfection? We need a :YUMMY: face. I've read the studies, but I've had not just a couple of people, I've had so many I can't count come tell us that it is the BEST beef they have EVER had. These are folks raised in one of the most prolific cattle states in the union. People who know their beef and often slaughter their own. So we're not just comparing to Wal-mart holstein bulls, killed young, hung for a good 30 min, and slapped on a styrofoam slab.

The kitchen at the co-op where we sell catored a luncheon for a governor candidate and used our beef because it's the best he's ever had, and everyone told him how awesome the beef was. We tell our customers, if you don't LOVE it, bring it back. Not just like it, but LOVE it. We've never had an unsatisfied customer. It has seriously ruined me on eating out. I get a steak at the swankiest (not sure if that's a word) steak house in the city, only Prime beef from Chicago is used, the top 0.1% of all beef (or something close to that) according to their literature. Doesn't hold a candle to our stuff.

I think your dislike of grass fed beef may have more to do with preparation than with the quality of the meat. Grass fed beef must be cooked rare to medium rare and at a lower temperature than conventional beef.

There are 3 ways to cook a steak, Medium rare, Medium, and ruined. Rare doesn't count 'cause I said "cook." Depending on the thickness and texture of the steak (filet to sirloin) we cook at different conditions. I also prefer a slower cook, but my business partner slaps his filet's on the grill at about 550ｰ cooks them very fast and they are awesome. About 5 min (4 flips in that time) and they are perfect medium. I can't seem to do it that way, but it works for him.

 

[Spiveyman]

Spiveyman, I would be very interested in hearing more about your operation and how my B-I-L might apply it to his.

So you'd like the secrets of our trade, huh? Just send $19.95 to... just kidding. I can share what I know.

I do not think he is interested in or capable of handling the slaughtering aspect. Do you do that yourself? What type of facility do you have? What sort of volume? What sort of regulatory headaches?

We don't slaughter ourselves, since we sell in groceries and soon will be in restaurants we have to be USDA inspected. We checked out every slaughter house in Central KY and selcted the best one in the state, one that we felt comfortable with, one that is a USDA inspected place. They pretty much took care of everything, so the regulatory headaches aren't so bad. The beef has to be less than 30 months of age and healthy. The USDA guy will inspect the carcass and the head/glands/tongue for infection. They also govern how the slaughter takes place to ensure it's humane. AS for volume, you just have to find a place that matches what you are after. One a month, you have to find a small one, 10 a week, you better find a hoss shop with lots of help.

...would not care that much about certified organic but the 'no ASH' thing would be a minor selling point and easy enough to achieve. I thik just selling whole or halves of cows to individuals would be the way my B-I-L could break into this. A little regional advertising would be all that he would need. He wouldn't have to change much in the way of his facilities. And I think if a cow got sick and needed antibiotics, you'd just put it back in with the regular herd.

Yep, ASH Free so far is not a USDA regulated claim, niether is grass fed, though it may soon be. We raise them in the spirit of the claim - all natural, as natural as can be. We also sell to individuals, but this can be tricky if that's all you do. You either have to line up people for the whole animal or plan on stocking up to 3/4 of a beef in your freezer. I found a brand new 20 cuft freezer at a scratch and dent place for $100. That's our company warehouse now.

Can you worm these 'non-ASH' cows? Ivermectin in other words? Around here I think it is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't consider Ivermectin to be an antibiotic per se. It is an anti-helminthic and is also technically not systemic.

ASH doesn't mention worming meds. We worm them and I'll gladly get in the face of any hemp-wearing individuals who choose to take an issue with that in the store. It's way more humane to help these critters get rid of paracitic worms than to let them be starved from the inside out. Yes, worm your cattle!

Do you worry, or care, about what goes into your hay in regard to your no-ASH designation? My B-I-L uses turkey manure for fertilizer. I'm sure it is not 'organic' turkey pooh.

Since we're not organic, we don't care about turkey poo fertilizer. We use good old american chemicals to replace the nutrients that the grass needs when it needs it. We test the soils and get specially mixed fertilizer for our land, but it's not organic because we're not organic. We also give our cattle "free will" minerals. Meaning the minerals are there if they want them. At certain times the grass can't supply all the nutrients they need so we have to suppliment. It's just like you taking your flintstones every day. Most of the "organic" people are all about making choices, we give the cattle the choice to eat the minerals. (Don't worry mod's, I'm trying to keep the politics out of this. )

Does the calves mother have to be no-ASH for the calf to be sold as no-ASH?

Our claims are on the animal you are eating, not its parents or grandparents. That being said, we raise all our animals the same.

Any pointers you can pass along would be greatly appreciated. This is something that he is getting more interested in as a way to diversify a little and augment his income. As far as I can tell it wouldn't add much in the way of additional cost or time.

To sell to friends and such, all one needs are friends willing to buy. Beyond that it can get a little tricky to drum up people to pay you a whole bunch of money for a whole bunch of beef. Also, many people think a cow is a walking steak, when in fact there's a WHOLE lot more grind than filet's. There's lots of effort in marketing your product if you want to make enough money to distinguish it from a hobby. We spent almost a year in brand development and market research before we had our first kill. That's made ALL the difference for us, but we're trying to go it full time big time. PM me if you'd like any more info. I'll be happy to help as best I can.

 

[N80]

I think your dislike of grass fed beef may have more to do with preparation than with the quality of the meat.

Preparation is obviously important, but most anyone can account for that, especially when you know the cooks (and know them to be very good cooks...one of whom writes the food column for a major newspaper) and witness the preparation.

Grass fed beef done correctly is tender, juicy, and does not have any gamy taste, at least in my experience. It is also healthier according to everything I've ever read.

Again, there is no accounting for tatse. All I know is what I've experienced, and what Bon Appetit had to say on the matter. And again, I'm not saying grass fed is bad. I simply prefer, given the choice, well marbled, grade A prime.

I would say that grass fed is definitely healthier, no doubt about it.