Our Dependencies

   / Our Dependencies #71  
Pete,

You're right on the mark. After four reads, I've still never made it through the radio speech towards the end. Even that can't take away from the power of her writings.

Every time the tax cuts for the rich comes up, I get the urge to chuck it and flip burgers at a roadside diner. Let somebody else subsidize things.
 
   / Our Dependencies #72  
Read you loud and clear. Everytime I hear the rabid idiots scream about tax cuts for the rich .... it think of two things. One is how 1 out of every five bucks on my paycheque goes to the federal or state government (and we won't talk about hidden taxes, property taxes, sales taxes) ... and the other is how the liberal idiots that cry about the tax cuts insulate themselves from taxes with their foundations, trusts, and tax-free perks and salaries. Oh, and how my taxes go to fund all their pet projects ... like another landmark in West Virgina for the wunder-Byrd.
 
   / Our Dependencies #73  
>>DO YOU THINK IT IS THE JANITORS WAGES THAT GOT THE UNITED STATES IN TROUBLE ???

Hey Wingnut, let me play devils advocate for a while (and just for the record I agree that $100K is absurd for a janitor to get paid)....

So here goes:

If it is OK for a CEO and other executives, managers etc to play the game (within the law) to maximize there compensation from the company, whi isn't OK for the janitor to do the same? If a buch of partners got toether, formed a firm and offered a service to the public they needed, than we would all defend there right to charge what they want and reap the rewards...then what is wrong with a group of janitors negotiating hard-ball to get $100K per year (if they really get that)?

I can't really fault the janitors for trying to get all they can get...maybe there aren't worth $100K, but how many of the CEOs are worth $500Million?

They are both just as greedy and you can't really fault one without the other...the only reason that the unions were able to get $100K paystubs is by getting the management to agree to it...and why does maangement agree to it? Usually because they are just lining there own pockets are really don't care where the money goes, as long as they get there share.

Think about it...is it wrong for a janitor to ask to be overpaid? or is it wrong for management to agree to it?

(Never been in a union, never would join a union, and have little use for unions...just for the record...like I said, just trying to point out the other side of the coin).
 
   / Our Dependencies #74  
<font color=blue>why does maangement agree to it? </font color=blue>
usually because of a strike ... which means money going out but none coming in. Management never wins the PR war because the media is pro-union (witness how they dote on the teachers union) and anti-business. Well, sometimes they win ... I recall Caterpillar didn't give in to the blackmail.
Besides ... management isn't losing .... who's the ultimate loser? You and I. The media usually forgets to point out who pays tariffs, taxes, salaries, and - ultimately - everyting. You and I, the consumers. Every penny. Every salary, all the graft, every nickel of the business tax. All on top of the sales tax.
Why do I get upset over the overpaid janitor? Because that overpaid janitor ... not the "greedy exec" ... means that if I want to buy a Suburban to transport my boy scout troop around ... I need to spend over $40k. Yeah, I always here how the greedy CEO's cost so much .... but who makes the defective tires? Who throws the marbles in the door panel to annoy the car buyers. Who caused the term "Wednesday car" to be coined? The guy who gets paid to direct the company or the guy on the line?
I am not defending the CEO's compensation. I did state that I thought they were overpaid ... but tried to show that many thousand employees "weighed more" in compensatiuon costs than one CEO. Using the yardstick of value ... yes, there may well be some execs out there worth their inflated salary. Let's take one I despise quite a bit ... Bill Gates. I have a very low opinion of him based on what I think of the products his company puts out ... but does he deserve the compensation he gets from Microsoft? I'd say he deserves every nickel. The company could probably afford to lose almost every employee without as much effect as losing him.
Let's take another I don't think to much of ... Ms. "And That's A Good Thing". Is she worth whatever Martha Steward Co. is paying her? Heck ... she IS the company. Without her fronting for the company ... it ain't worth spit (not that I think it is worth spit .... I'm not a celeb-fawner).
The yardstick, to me, is whether the employee - up at the top of down at the bottom) returns more value to the company that the comensation they receive. If not, the company is going down the tube .... witness all the dot-bombs. Did the average software "engineer" provide in excess of $100k a year to the company? Obviously not ... they're all gone.
Is there a janitor extant (we'll keep attacking these poor folk) who provides $100k of value per year. Hmm ... maybe the ones who taste GWB's food .... or sweep up the anthrax in the post office ... just joking, of course. My perception is ... no .... sweeping a floor or dumping a wastepaper basket can never provide that kind of value .. at least not until you and I are willing to pay $99,999.99 for a cheeseburger ... and I know I'm not that hungry!

So, Mr. Devil's Advocate ... my view is that blackmail is unacceptable ... whether it's union "workers" threatening a strike or North Korea threatening a war. And I can fault the union workers more than the CEO's .... CEO's don't blackmail to keep their jobs at the expense of consumers ... they shuck and jive the Boards of Directors ... who get elected by the stockholders. And get turfed by the Board of necessary ... and the Board members can get turfed (or even sued) by the stockholders. Do we sue the union workers who make the defective parts - tires and the like? No, we penalize the stockholders by suing the corporation.
Me, cynical? nah ....

One last comment ... <font color=blue>is it wrong for a janitor to ask to be overpaid[/blue} .... I've never asked for a raise in my life .... I work my butt off ... provide all the value I possibly can, upgrade my skills on my time at my cost ... and, for some strange reason, my paycheque gets bigger almost every year.
 
   / Our Dependencies #75  
>>my view is that blackmail is unacceptable

I agree, but I still fault management for giving in to the union demands, more than I fault the unions for demanding it...of course they are going to demand it, thats what unions are for. Management is supposed to be looking out for the stockholders, the *real* owners of the company...not themselves, and we have found out there examples like worldcom, enron, global crossing, tyco etc etc, the managers were basically just looting the company and providing no value what-so-ever....just making themselves filthy rich.

...and I guess its not a far stretch in my mind for the average joe factory worker/janitor to see the gross excesses and figure, "what the heck, I am gonna get me some of that too".

Management needs to set a good example to.
As cowboydoc has pointed out (either here or over on CBN) it all comes down to greed, greedy managers and greedy union workers. Equally guilty in my book. (and there is plenty of blame to go around)
 
   / Our Dependencies #76  
<font color=blue>but who makes the defective tires</font color=blue>

Correct me if I am wrong but is the management who was working the striking employees job.Thus my understanding management made the bad tires.
 
   / Our Dependencies #77  
Think It was camp 5 and 7 that I worked at for one of the contractors. It was my understanding that some of the survey camps were stocked by jet boats. I wasn't thinking of racing boats.

Egon
 
   / Our Dependencies #78  
I keep seeing references to hard work getting a person ahead. Perhaps that should be ammended to efficient work as there is many a hard working soul who never seems to improve his position.

Egon
 
   / Our Dependencies #79  
I guess it's possible, Egon ... but all the camps I saw had roads to them ... via the gravel road from Grande Priarie to Grand Cache.
I remeber a few cat skinners I knew who learned their trade at the camps ... with different contractors at many of them ... they'd go from one to another gaining experience before someone noticing they had no skills ... until finally they wee knowledgeable enough to keep a job for awhile. Of course, that's how a few cats disappeared into the deep muskeg too ...

Man ... taht's a looooong time ago, isn't it?

Were you building roadbed, working track ... or there in the extremely early stages like I was?
 
   / Our Dependencies #80  
I wouldn't have thought we'd need to be supplied by jet boat ... our standard means of transportation was Nodwells ... and there's not too many places them tracked turkeys couldn't go!
I remember my first day when one of the instrument guys thought he should send me back for a can of compression ... of course he didn't know I grew up on monkeying with cars and also didn't know I saw him pull the choke (or that I loved to walk in the woods unlike most of the city kids that were on the crew). Gave me a nice 2 hour break walking back to camp, getting a snack at the kitchen and walking back out there.
 

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