Over engineering

[Willl]

Was that a union worker ?

 

[qstott]

Lately I have been refering to common sense as "uncommon sense". Common sense is not as common as it used to be

 

[turbo36]

Actually, I am one of the most popular engineers at the facility that I am currently at(among the operators). I recently moved to a policy of confronting the offensive. The religous philosophy displayed is killing us as a society. With "common sense", you can rationalize any behavior you like.

Anybody think that some people are offensive?

Chris

I have outlawed the use of the term "common sense" in my Company. Most people fail to accept the fact that all knowledge is learned and thus not "common" at all. When they push back at that concept I ask them how they know that if they touch something "hot" they will get burned and almost universally they will say "because I touched it and got burned". "Ah" I will reply "so it wasn't common knowledge until you discovered it???":laughing:

 

[DANOCHEESE]

So the term " does'nt have a lick of common sense" cannot be used? Maybe retained knowledge!!

The problem is that I was raised with the policy of We can;t afford to hire a person to come repair it so figure out what is wrong and fix it. One learns to be fairly smart or you won't survive.

 

[beppington]

Most of the "most admired professions" or "most trusted professions" types of lists I've seen have engineering near the top, but occasionally I encounter a complainer - I like to ask them how we would ever have put a man in space without engineers. These seem to usually be people who think they know better but aren't willing to change their position in order to do anything about it.

 

[mad_planter]

Intentionally offensive.

I'm sorry you feel that way. My intent was to point out you can learn something from others who see things from a different perspective. I felt the comment was dismissed because I was implying that those with less education and training were just picking on those who actually did the design. But after growing up on dairy farm and working on my own machinery for years I believe that equipment could have been made better by consulting with the guys who would be expected to keep it running for years by asking them what bottlenecks they see if they had to repair and maintain the equipment.

Engineers across all the fields have done incredible jobs at innovation and design, but I often see a degree of arrogance and defensiveness that seems to come with education and training (not just engineers seem to suffer from this andI've done it myself many times) that causes people to be very dismissive to some ideas. Admittedly sometimes those comments that are made are just "sour grapes" by jerks, but sometimes there's some neat ideas from unexpected sources.

 

[dynasim]

mad_planter

The story about the blow hard was meant to insult engineers. The ball point pen story was meant to insult engineers. What you are saying is that when someone insults me, I should just take it.

You say you are an atypical(and good) engineer because you take surveys of what the technicians want, and do that(I am paraphrasing for effect).

I say a good engineer utilizes clear objectives and knowledge of all the available useful data(including the effected parties limitations/strengths/knowledge) to develop safe, robust, maintainable, buildable, cost effective designs.

Your statement

"The same thing goes for designing a machine. Most engineers are not going to look at their design of engine and say "what if I had to change the oil filter" What if I have to change the heater hose, etc, etc. But if you bring in a mechanic who doesn't design engines, just works on them. He's going to see things from his perspective; Namely that getting to the oil filter is a pain in the butt and how on earth am I going to change that heater hose if it breaks?"

is so far off the mark, as to not need any rebuttal. Are you saying automotive engineers don't take replacement of oil filters into account? Perhaps the oil filter should be mounted on the console for ease of access (I am being sarcastic.)

There are good engineers and bad engineers.
There are good operators and bad operators.
There are producers and there are leaches.

This is true in every walk of life.

Chris

 

[Mace Canute]

I think a lot of the derision for engineers comes from seeing things that cost several hundreds of dollars to fix because of an engineers decision to reinvent the wheel...and failure to realize that a round wheel is better in almost all circumstances than a square wheel. Change for the sake of change? How about the engineer that thought 3 threads in a head was adequate for a spark plug? How about putting the connector for heater hoses to heater cores behind the firewall instead of in front? Or spark plugs where there is no room to actually change them? Or lift the cab off the chassis to do head work? Or having to have way remove the grill,etc, just to change a burned out headlight? These are just automotive related items, I'm sure examples can be found everywhere. Is it a wonder that a layman looks at such things and asks "What were they thinking?"

 

[RoyJackson]

I think a lot of the derision for engineers comes from seeing things that cost several hundreds of dollars to fix because of an engineers decision to reinvent the wheel..."

Design Engineers don't always look at maintainability, but they do look at cost of manufacturing.
Manufacturing Engineers or Industrial Engineers also focus on the manufacturing end (costs and producibility).
We Quality Engineers just ensure the Production groups (internal and suppliers) meet the design specifications.

There are warranty groups, but they're interested in field failures (and costs).

So, it's not necessarily the engineers causing the problems. The things most of us experience are due to the Accounting Dept running the show.

The only industry that I've seen that looks into maintainability is aerospace...but I'm sure the Agricultural equipment industry considers maintainability too.

 

[slowzuki]

As an engineer, this strikes close to home. Many engineers are told to solve a problem and given constraints, usually time and money. I had a contractor complain about a design I did, I had 5 days on site, then 4 weeks to prepare the design, calculations, drawings, tender docs etc, and I couldn't access the equipment, only look from 60+ ft away. The drawings I had to work from were not as-built and were really bad to non-existing.

They had hanging scaffolding, manlifts and over 3 years to do the install, but complained to me when the dimensions caused minor pipe interferences (despite the note to co-ordinate with existing services.)

 

[dynasim]

Mace,

I am going to make 4 points.

1) Identifying small numbers of circumstances of engineers making poor judgment, and using that to justify derision on the whole group is not reasonable.

2) Maintainabilty and accessiblity are not the only inputs into a engineering judgment, and engineers rarely set the constraints. If you are going to stuff a 3 ft3 device into a 3.5 ft3 volume, the end user is not going to be happy with maintainability of that device.

3) What is the "common sense" judgement that would have allowed the engineers to know that a 3 thread spark plug is not reasonable(and is it really not reasonable or just poorly executed). The maximum of 3 threads may very will have been imposed by weight constraints(head thickness).

4) A successful business is unlikely to reinvent the wheel for the fun of it. If the wheel had not be reinvented several times, I am quite sure that my car would not ride as well as it does(stone wheels would likely lead to a rough ride).


Chris

 

[mad_planter]

mad_planter

The story about the blow hard was meant to insult engineers. The ball point pen story was meant to insult engineers. What you are saying is that when someone insults me, I should just take it.

You say you are an atypical(and good) engineer because you take surveys of what the technicians want, and do that(I am paraphrasing for effect).

I say a good engineer utilizes clear objectives and knowledge of all the available useful data(including the effected parties limitations/strengths/knowledge) to develop safe, robust, maintainable, buildable, cost effective designs.

Your statement



is so far off the mark, as to not need any rebuttal. Are you saying automotive engineers don't take replacement of oil filters into account? Perhaps the oil filter should be mounted on the console for ease of access (I am being sarcastic.)

There are good engineers and bad engineers.
There are good operators and bad operators.
There are producers and there are leaches.

This is true in every walk of life.

Chris

I coped and pasted the story about the conveyor belt and sent it to the other engineers I work with on a regular basis. Not one of them called me on the carpet for sending something that was insulting. Several of them (that I know of) actually sent it on to others. I and they didn't take it as a insult but rather keep a open mind to suggestions by others.

Certainly many of these types of things are meant as insults delivered out jealousy or bitterness, bit I don't think that those two have to be taken that way

 

[dynasim]

Roy,

The petrochemical industry has whole departments focused on maintainability and reliablity. The consequences of equipment failure is significant, and they can have normal run times(with no shutdowns) of 2-4 years.

Chris

 

[dynasim]

Mad_planter

I suggest you read the intent of the OP's original post.

Blond jokes are funny and illustrative, too. They are just no more true than the parable of the blow hard. There are stupid blondes, but, because a joke is funny, it wouldn't be reasonable to assume that blondes are stupid.

You took a clever, illustrative parable, and said it was true for "Most" engineers(but not to yourself, because you are better than that). The quote is shown below.

The same thing goes for designing a machine. Most engineers are not going to look at their design of engine and say "what if I had to change the oil filter" What if I have to change the heater hose, etc, etc. But if you bring in a mechanic who doesn't design engines, just works on them. He's going to see things from his perspective; Namely that getting to the oil filter is a pain in the butt and how on earth am I going to change that heater hose if it breaks?

You and your buddies can choose to accept derision. I don't have to. Mockery(which was my choice for a civilized reply), is an effective tool to stop this sort of thing.

Chris

 

[mad_planter]

So be it. I said I was as guilty of it as anyone. I simply offered up a different point of view.

have fun with the chip on your shoulder. I'm sure it will bring you happiness.

I can't contribute anymore to the conversation.

 

[Cat_Driver]

On the same vein, often times I will delay a project because I over think it. Then I get to the point that's it's too complicated. I will hire someone to do the work, they show up with the minimum of tools and just tackle the project. After watching them I think - " I could have done that"

I think some people ( me ) want things done perfectly, and the people you hire to do the work could care less about "perfection".

I see all the problems that may arise and try to figure those in. A service person just doesn't think of the "problems" that may arise, or doesn't care and jump in with both feet.

After all it's not their house, their vehicle, their anything, so if they leave a scratch, a gouge, a hole in something, they just move on. Me, I have to look at and life with those mistakes, thereby my over thinking everything to not make those mistakes.

Same with employees, they could care less if they don't secure something to a truck and it works lose and break, or if they forget any supplies of tools for a job, after all it's not their problem.

 

[Mace Canute]

dynasim, I made a few points as to why some people have a poor opinion of some engineers. Your response was "interesting" and informative in a way...but probably not in the way you think it was.

 

[dynasim]

Mace Canute,

I am simply resisting the destructive perpetuation of a stereotype.

Now I am an egotistical jerk with a chip on my shoulder(you didn't call me that but others did). Not really.

Perhaps you could tell me how it was "interesting" and informative in a way.
If you don't want to put it on this thread, pm me. I'd appreciate it.

Seriously. I enjoy reading your contributions.

Chris

 

[murphy1244]

I remember a Chevy Monza V-8 that you had to pull the engine to change spark plugs. :laughing: