Penetrating oils

[Danno1]

.

Found this on a motorcycle site:


The April/May edition of Machinist's Workshop did a test of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen rusty test devices. Buy the issue if you want to see how they did the test. The results reported were interesting. The lower the number of pounds the better.

Penetrating oil .. Average load .. Price per fluid ounce
None ................. 516 pounds ..
WD-40 .............. 238 pounds .. $0.25
PB Blaster ......... 214 pounds .. $0.35
Liquid Wrench ... 127 pounds .. $0.21
Kano Kroil ......... 106 pounds .. $0.75
ATF-Acetone mix.. 53 pounds .. $0.10

The ATF-Acetone mix was a 50/50 mix (1 to 1 ratio).


.

 

[Soundguy]

I usually make my own p-oil by mixing ATF or MMO with 1 of the following.. kerosene, diesel, or mineral spirits.

Depending on the time of the year, the usualy mix is MS and ATF.. as cheap jiffy store atf is still 84 cents a bottle, and MS goes down to a buck a gallon at the hardware store now and then.

1/2 gallon ms and a quart of atf makes some pretty good unstickum that goes in a spray bottle. ( smells better than diesel or kero.. too )

Soundguy

 

[Kendall69]

Cold Shock is (according to its maker) a fast acting penetrating oil that super-cools bolts to -30ï½°F causing a ç”°old-cracking action of the rust and corrosion. This ç”°old-cracking process allows the penetrating oils to seep between threads to loosen rust, (hopefully) allowing the nut or bolt freedom from its rusty prison. J. Walter claims to have had success on bolts up to 3″ in diameter.

Walter USA

Anyway, Cold Shock is available for around $13 in 400ml aerosol cans. It sounds pretty slick, though I'm not sure what happens if you get some on your hands. One of the few things we imagine sucks worse than frozen bolts would be ç”°old-cracked fingers.

Candle wax works great at loosening stuck bolts. For some reason it penetrates great and lubricates the friction surfaces well. You have to get the surfaces really hot, like Oxy Acetylene torch hot, and that creates the hazard of the waxç—´ vapor lighting on fire.

 

[BlacknTan]

I get a kick out of these backyard scientific tests...

How did they get the test pieces identically siezed with rust?
Why would acetone, which evaporates extremely rapidly, enhance the penetrating qualities of the ATF?
Why would a backyard concoction outperform a product with some chemical science behind it?

It reminds me of a few years back when all the Clay target shooters hit on a better idea and started lubricating the hinge pins of their expensive O/U's with Mobil dino motor oil instead of Mil'Spec synthetic lubricants expressly designed for the purpose..

IMO, one just cannot outdo a purpose designed product with witches brew........

 

[joerocker]

IMO, one just cannot outdo a purpose designed product with witches brew........

Unless it's ALL witches brew!

Who knows WHAT to believe anymore...

 

[mrutkaus]

Thanks for the info, that's an impressive magazine, really "into" metals!

Mike

 

[Soundguy]

I get a kick out of these backyard scientific tests...........

We are posting what has worked for us over the years. Personally.. PB blaster works good for me.. however.. at the price per can it gets prohibitive when yuo are working on antique tractors where 110% of the fasteners were already rusted stuck years before I was born. Thus.. i can go broke buying the scientifically formulated stuff, or i can find something that costs 3$ to make a little over 2 gallons of it, and have it work at least 90% as good. With your way.. I'd have less money to spend on dragging the rusty iron home.. etc.

Why would acetone, which evaporates extremely rapidly, enhance the penetrating qualities of the ATF?

While i havn't used the acetone mix, i have used other quick flashing materials like naptha... They work as solvents to thin the ATF.. once it is thinner it can wick into tighter spots faster.. when the solvent flashes off you are left with a decent lube residue.

Why would a backyard concoction outperform a product with some chemical science behind it?

Why not. You honestly think that every meaningfull scientific breakthru that has happend on this planet has only taken place on purpose, in a lab under controlled environments, with 4 million dollars of test equipment on the shelf, and a team of engineers and other people with enough lettered degrees by their name to need a chinese alphabet? That's real wishfull thinking.

one just cannot outdo a purpose designed product with witches brew........

Since you are so big on science to back up things.. where is your emperical evidence disproving any of the concotions posted here. We will of course want corroborating test results conducted by independent labs to verify your hypothesis.. etc.

Guess I shouldn't hold my breath on that right? (wink)

I can't speak for others.. but in the forums i haunt.. I'd wager that ATF has helped break free more stuck pistons/rings from liners than probably any other single chemical.

In some cases, a slightly thinned atf concoction actually works better than the superthin penetrating oil for situations where you want it to pool and wick around many places, like rings on a piston, vs leaking out intot he pan the first straight thru opening it finds... etc.

Soundguy

 

[Kendall69]

One vote for ATF, I asked a guy who had 650k on an old GM 6.5 diesel, and he said he dumped a quart if ATF in the tank every now and then.

For what it's worth.

 

[SpringHollow]

Back yard concoctions can work better. I recently saw the results of some professional testing on additives for increasing diesel lubricity. Making the diesel be 2% biodiesel worked better than the expensive additives. But the additives help with other things. I also do not know if there would be gelling issues with 2% bidiesel in the winter.

Ken

 

[EddieWalker]

My favorite penetrating oil is the 3in1 brand that they sell at Lowes. I've tried the others, except Krol, and found the 3in1 to be the most consistant. I've never herd of using ATF before. ATF does stand for Automatic Transmission Fluid? Right?

I've also found that the biggest name brandsa and the best known are not always the best. They do a good job of mass marketing and name recognition, but as long as it's selling, they don't worry about the quality of their product.

Eddie

 

[SnowRidge]

Did the article discuss test procedures or mention repeatability? Did it mention how long they let the fasteners rust together?

Personally, I have used everything in that list, including "none," except Kano Kroll and the ATF acetone mix. I have always had better luck with PB Blaster than the others.

Acetone dissolves a lot of plastics and may damage other synthetics, so I don't think I'll be trying that. Too great a risk of getting some of it where it could do some harm, IMO.

 

[BlacknTan]

We are posting what has worked for us over the years. Personally.. PB blaster works good for me.. however.. at the price per can it gets prohibitive when yuo are working on antique tractors where 110% of the fasteners were already rusted stuck years before I was born. Thus.. i can go broke buying the scientifically formulated stuff, or i can find something that costs 3$ to make a little over 2 gallons of it, and have it work at least 90% as good. With your way.. I'd have less money to spend on dragging the rusty iron home.. etc.




While i havn't used the acetone mix, i have used other quick flashing materials like naptha... They work as solvents to thin the ATF.. once it is thinner it can wick into tighter spots faster.. when the solvent flashes off you are left with a decent lube residue.



Why not. You honestly think that every meaningfull scientific breakthru that has happend on this planet has only taken place on purpose, in a lab under controlled environments, with 4 million dollars of test equipment on the shelf, and a team of engineers and other people with enough lettered degrees by their name to need a chinese alphabet? That's real wishfull thinking.





Since you are so big on science to back up things.. where is your emperical evidence disproving any of the concotions posted here. We will of course want corroborating test results conducted by independent labs to verify your hypothesis.. etc.

Guess I shouldn't hold my breath on that right? (wink)

I can't speak for others.. but in the forums i haunt.. I'd wager that ATF has helped break free more stuck pistons/rings from liners than probably any other single chemical.

In some cases, a slightly thinned atf concoction actually works better than the superthin penetrating oil for situations where you want it to pool and wick around many places, like rings on a piston, vs leaking out intot he pan the first straight thru opening it finds... etc.

Soundguy

Guess I should have known better than to post something that might be counter to one of the resident experts.
While I am new to tractors, I've spent a lifetime working with metal..

And your right, having worked for 30 years at a National Scientific Laboratory, I am big on science, as you put it. You're also absolutely correct that I have no empirical evidence to back up my claims, and neither no the backyard "experts", and that's exactly my point!

Maybe you're right. Maybe the backyard chemists can come up with something superior to chemical engineers with all the fancy test equipment you appear to eschew, but, I doubt it!
It also appears to put the "backyard chemist's" longevity into question, if I may be so bold to suggest it......

 

[JSharp]

I wonder how they got all the fasteners "rusted" the same amount too.

My experience has been "none" works about as well as anything. I've never seen any of these concoctions make it much easier to break a rusted fastener or slip fit free and many of them like WD40 are poor lubricants that do a terrible job of preventing further rust.

Once the parts are moving even a small amount it's a different story. Then solvents and lubrication will help. But initially, heat/cold and pressure seem to be what really works after all the magic potions fail...

 

[Sully2]

If Kroil wont get it free for me...there's always the "hot wrench"!!

 

[CATMAN]

I am a very big fan of Kano Kroil. First used at CAT dealer in Omaha 25 years ago, and the heavy equipment mechanics swear by it. Two years ago, I found they switched to PB blaster, but it was either a cost issue or a MSDS issue. In Seattle, the COE wants every product to be CAT IF it is offered, thus we use CAT brand. Now, when chassis dyno roll set(27 years old) down in its wet, humid pit failed its inside bearings, they allowed me to purchase a couple of cans of Kroil because of the expensive housings I was trying to salvage to get to those inside bearings. It worked. The service manager uses Kano Kroil at home(as do I) and he agrees with the majority that use it. I got my Dad hooked on the stuff 20 years ago(farm equipment) and if it doesn't work in five minutes or so, he just sprays it now and then for 24 hours and he has had great success with it, too. The blue flame(torch) is always an option on the very worst cases.

 

[Soundguy]

The only results i can quote are those that my arm and socket wrench or breaker bars have seen over the years. I've had much better results using practically anything vs nothing when taking a bolt / nut apart.

Also.. in some cases where you can get the product to creep thru a rusted joint.. it hlps. i'm not talking threads/nuts/bolts.. I'm talking about metal tometal slip joints.. like stuck pto shafts. Once you can get lube to seep betweent he metal parts by capilary action.. you are much better off. A lube oil thinned down seems ( to me anyway) to wick way better than straight oil;.. Thus the thinned down ATF mix.. etc.

Whoever mentioned wd-40.. it's not a great lube.. and not 'long term' at all.... though does displace water reat good...(hmm.. )

Also.. note.. i'm not saying any comercial concoction is bad.. What i'm saying that your blanket statement that any non comercial conction is useless is well.. so vauge as to be virtually incorrect. As I mentioned before.. ATF straight, and atf/kero mix has unstuck quite a few engines there were otherwise headed to the salvage yard. In some of those cases ATF is used straight so that it won't drain past/thru the rings too fast.. etc.

Hard to argue that ATF doesn't have lube qualities.

Soundguy

Guess I should have known better than to post something that might be counter to one of the resident experts.
While I am new to tractors, I've spent a lifetime working with metal..

And your right, having worked for 30 years at a National Scientific Laboratory, I am big on science, as you put it. You're also absolutely correct that I have no empirical evidence to back up my claims, and neither no the backyard "experts", and that's exactly my point!

Maybe you're right. Maybe the backyard chemists can come up with something superior to chemical engineers with all the fancy test equipment you appear to eschew, but, I doubt it!
It also appears to put the "backyard chemist's" longevity into question, if I may be so bold to suggest it......

 

[ScottAR]

I'm not prepared to debate the qualities of ATF vs anything else. I do find it odd that only one of my favorites were on the list. I guess you can't test every product on the market. PB blaster is still my favorite mostly because it's easy to get. Seafoam deep creep works well too, but a little more expensive.
Rust Reaper is simply the best stuff on the planet but I have to order it. Smells nice too. Something about oil of evergreen.

I too say it's impossible to get every fastener to rust the same amount but I don't know how else one would test a penetrating oil without something to penetrate.

 

[BlacknTan]

The only results i can quote are those that my arm and socket wrench or breaker bars have seen over the years. I've had much better results using practically anything vs nothing when taking a bolt / nut apart.

Also.. in some cases where you can get the product to creep thru a rusted joint.. it hlps. i'm not talking threads/nuts/bolts.. I'm talking about metal tometal slip joints.. like stuck pto shafts. Once you can get lube to seep betweent he metal parts by capilary action.. you are much better off. A lube oil thinned down seems ( to me anyway) to wick way better than straight oil;.. Thus the thinned down ATF mix.. etc.

Whoever mentioned wd-40.. it's not a great lube.. and not 'long term' at all.... though does displace water reat good...(hmm.. )

Also.. note.. i'm not saying any comercial concoction is bad.. What i'm saying that your blanket statement that any non comercial conction is useless is well.. so vauge as to be virtually incorrect. As I mentioned before.. ATF straight, and atf/kero mix has unstuck quite a few engines there were otherwise headed to the salvage yard. In some of those cases ATF is used straight so that it won't drain past/thru the rings too fast.. etc.

Hard to argue that ATF doesn't have lube qualities.

Soundguy

I have nothing to argue with here, Soundguy, and I'm not trying to be arguementative at all..

My only point is this, I'm not knowledgable enough about these chemicals and their properties myself, so, I put my faith in the people that are to supply me with the correct product for the job at hand.
I'm also kinda' leery about mixing up chemical compounds I know nothing about because of the possible interactions..

I'll agree that ATF obviously has some lubrication qualities because of it's intended use, and clearly, it would be better than nothing to seep in and loosen a rusted joint..

Glad you've had good luck with it..

 

[Offy]

I like PB Blaster but like acetone it melts many plastics. I remember an old concrete plant manager that used to spray the phone with WD-40 to counter the effects of the cement dust. A sale guy gave him a can of PB as a sample. He sprayed the phone with excellent results......for a while, then the buttons started to stick and seize up as the plastic began to attack and weld together.

 

[Danno1]

.

How you would get things to rust (corrode) relatively evenly is to use a standardized salt spray test. Of course you'd still have to test more than one bolted connection for each liquid and then average the results.

Salt spray test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.