People shoot people not guns?

[N80]

What about aliens that have served in the U.S. military?

Depends on what you mean by 'alien' and by 'served'.

An illegal alien should not be allowed to serve in the US military. US taxpayers pay for the benefits our military members receive. That money should not go to those breaking the laws of this nation by their very presence.

For anyone else who is in this country legally, and can serve in the military legally then that is fine if that is what they wish to do. I'm not convinced that should confer all the other rights of citizenship if they are not naturailzed citizens though.

In that regard, the defining priniciple would be whether or not they are required to register with selective service. That is an involuntary obligation of male citizens over 18. If a person falls under that obligation, then I would agree that they are eligible for all the other rights our constitution guarantees. (Don't get me started on women vs selective service. If some women can be part of the military then all women should be required to register for selective service and all that that implies, i.e. the draft.)

 

[Soundguy]

My take is.. that if you are going to permanently live in a country.... why not become a citizen?

On the flip side... If I went to another country I wouldn't -expect- anything other than a few basic human rights.. and even those I would hold in question depending on where I was.. In short.. I think the good ole' US gov't tends to give away to anybody .. a few things that should be reserved for those of us that decide to be / stay citizens.

Just my opinion.. I'm not militant about it.. I don't blame legal aliens.. I blame the govt.. etc.

Soundguy

I'm not well versed in what constitutes a legal immigrant, resident or 'citizen'. If someone is legally in this country and fullfills all the same obligations as I do then in my mind they are entitled to the same benefits as I am. So don't get caught up in my imprecise terms. I think you see can what I am saying.

However, I think the right to keep and bear arms is among the main rights that should be most precious to us. I'd rank it above freedom of the press and free speech. So I disagree that it is somehow more easily transfered to 'others' than any of our other freedoms.

If the citizens are armed, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and freedom of speech can be obtained. A powerless citizenry cannot guarantee any of those freedoms for itself.

 

[Soundguy]

I think we are pretty close to being on the same page with this issue. Perhaps a few nuainced differences.. but more or less in agreement.

Just to further re-iterate... I got nothing personally against any legal resident alien.. or visitor... glad ya like the country...

Soundguy

Depends on what you mean by 'alien' and by 'served'.

An illegal alien should not be allowed to serve in the US military. US taxpayers pay for the benefits our military members receive. That money should not go to those breaking the laws of this nation by their very presence.

For anyone else who is in this country legally, and can serve in the military legally then that is fine if that is what they wish to do. I'm not convinced that should confer all the other rights of citizenship if they are not naturailzed citizens though.

In that regard, the defining priniciple would be whether or not they are required to register with selective service. That is an involuntary obligation of male citizens over 18. If a person falls under that obligation, then I would agree that they are eligible for all the other rights our constitution guarantees. (Don't get me started on women vs selective service. If some women can be part of the military then all women should be required to register for selective service and all that that implies, i.e. the draft.)

 

[Tom_H]

Six Islamic radicals were charged today in New Jersey in an alledged plot to buy automatic weapons and to set off explosives to kill U.S. soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/08/fortdix.plot/index.html

There are valid points on all sides of the issue of profiling. I have mixed feelings, but I tend to lean toward what Soundguy said earlier.

Insofar as gun free zones, what about court? A man in a New Your court last night pulled out a sawed off rifle and fired it at his accuser, narrowly missing the judge. Court is a place where tensions between people run high. Does it make sense for court to be gun free, or should no place whatsoever be gun free?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/05/08/courtroom.shooting.ap/index.html

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Just to further re-iterate... I got nothing personally against any legal resident alien.. or visitor... glad ya like the country...

Soundguy

I know of one LEGAL alien, who is applying for citizenship and going through the legal process. He is a Canadian Ex-Patriot who moved to the USA, lives here, works here, pays taxes. When he moved to the US, he brought his guns with him, again legally. He now has a legal CCW permit.

I guess I understand allowing him to import his firearms from Canada to the US as part of the process of him moving here. But I am not sure that I understand logic of granting him a CCW permit. Then again, CCW permits are states rights issues and the state he lives in believes him to be an honest, trustworthy, contributing citizen of the state, so they granted him the CCW permit.

I don't recall if my state requires US citizenship as part of the CCW permit application process, but I do know it requires you to be a resident of the state???

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Insofar as gun free zones, what about court? A man in a New Your court last night pulled out a sawed off rifle and fired it at his accuser, narrowly missing the judge. Court is a place where tensions between people run high. Does it make sense for court to be gun free, or should no place whatsoever be gun free?

Man fires shot at his accuser in court,*misses - CNN.com

I was talking to a police officer today who came to my office to ask me some quesitons about which assault weapon he should buy. We got onto the topic of Gun Free Zones.

Take a school as an example. Those are typcially gun free zones. However, there is typically no security to prevent you from carrying a gun onto the school grounds. So a criminal knows that HONEST people won't carry a gun. Therefore the criminal is REASONABLY ASSURED that there will be no guns there except the guns he carries onto campus. He essentially has a school full of unarmed targets to choose from.

Take a typcial courthouse as another example. MOST have security in the foyer, you cannot carry a gun into the building without going through a security clearance. Therefore after you have gone through the clearance, you have REASONABLE ASSURANCE that there are no criminals with guns on the other side of the security gates. Most often the times when a criminal obtains a gun inside a courthouse it is because a guard was bribed or a guard's gun was stolen by the criminal.

 

[RonMar]

I was talking to a police officer today who came to my office to ask me some quesitons about which assault weapon he should buy. We got onto the topic of Gun Free Zones.

Take a school as an example. Those are typcially gun free zones. However, there is typically no security to prevent you from carrying a gun onto the school grounds. So a criminal knows that HONEST people won't carry a gun. Therefore the criminal is REASONABLY ASSURED that there will be no guns there except the guns he carries onto campus. He essentially has a school full of unarmed targets to choose from.

Take a typcial courthouse as another example. MOST have security in the foyer, you cannot carry a gun into the building without going through a security clearance. Therefore after you have gone through the clearance, you have REASONABLE ASSURANCE that there are no criminals with guns on the other side of the security gates. Most often the times when a criminal obtains a gun inside a courthouse it is because a guard was bribed or a guard's gun was stolen by the criminal.

EXACTLY! There is a big difference between a "gun free zone' at a school and a courthouse. Courthouses typically have armed security, bayliffs and guards and security checkpoints as well as a steady flow of law enforcement personnel comming and going. Most schools do not. I don't especially mind going into a courthouse as I have a reasonable expectation of safety. I rather resent the restrictions applied to a concealed carry permit as far as it restricts my ability to provide my own protection in certain places where there is no one with the specific responsibility, tools or training to do so immediatly if the need arose.

Old Joke:

A guy hears a prowler in his shed at night and calls 911. The dispatcher says that all officers are busy so it will be a little while till one can respond. He waits a few minutes and calls back and says no hurry, he just shot the prowler... The police arrived in force a few minutes later.

The only person guaranteed to be there when you are in trouble is YOU! Anyone who believes the police can respond in time to save you is out of touch with reality. The odds of it happening get worse and worse as police departments are forced to streamline due to rising costs. They will come, and document the event and start an investigation while you are on the way to the morgue.

 

[MossRoad]

Depends on what you mean by 'alien' and by 'served'.

An illegal alien should not be allowed to serve in the US military. US taxpayers pay for the benefits our military members receive. That money should not go to those breaking the laws of this nation by their very presence.

For anyone else who is in this country legally, and can serve in the military legally then that is fine if that is what they wish to do. I'm not convinced that should confer all the other rights of citizenship if they are not naturailzed citizens though.

In that regard, the defining priniciple would be whether or not they are required to register with selective service. That is an involuntary obligation of male citizens over 18. If a person falls under that obligation, then I would agree that they are eligible for all the other rights our constitution guarantees. (Don't get me started on women vs selective service. If some women can be part of the military then all women should be required to register for selective service and all that that implies, i.e. the draft.)

Look up the selective service website. It states that all aliens have to register with it.

I look at it this way... if you are eligible to die for this country in the military, you should be eligible to get a carry permit, buy yourself a beer and vote.

 

[Soundguy]

I agree... I fthe gov't makes it a 'secure zone, and provides 'reasonable' safety measures.. I don't mind not carrying my gun.. EG.. couthouses and most govt. buildings.. etc.

Soundguy

EXACTLY! There is a big difference between a "gun free zone' at a school and a courthouse. Courthouses typically have armed security, bayliffs and guards and security checkpoints as well as a steady flow of law enforcement personnel comming and going. Most schools do not. I don't especially mind going into a courthouse as I have a reasonable expectation of safety. I rather resent the restrictions applied to a concealed carry permit as far as it restricts my ability to provide my own protection in certain places where there is no one with the specific responsibility, tools or training to do so immediatly if the need arose.

Old Joke:

A guy hears a prowler in his shed at night and calls 911. The dispatcher says that all officers are busy so it will be a little while till one can respond. He waits a few minutes and calls back and says no hurry, he just shot the prowler... The police arrived in force a few minutes later.

The only person guaranteed to be there when you are in trouble is YOU! Anyone who believes the police can respond in time to save you is out of touch with reality. The odds of it happening get worse and worse as police departments are forced to streamline due to rising costs. They will come, and document the event and start an investigation while you are on the way to the morgue.

 

[RoyJackson]

I was talking to a police officer today who came to my office to ask me some quesitons about which assault weapon he should buy.

So, which one did you recommend, Bob?

BTW, any rifle you can buy as a civilian in the US is not an assault rifle...no more then any hunting or other sporting rifle.
AR15's, AK47's and such that are semi-auto only are just sporting rifles with detachable magazines.
Assault rifles are selective fire or full auto only.
There's a lot of people (mostly in the news media) who mistake the two.