People shoot people not guns?

[N80]

These Zones are a good place to stay away from if you want to live longer.

Apparently there are some rumblings about making the state universities here in SC open for legal concealed weapons. It seems that many of the students don't like the idea (due in large part to the fine quality of their public school educations....they can pass tests but they can't think).

Some things we need to see and need to demand: First we should demand to be able to carry legal concealed weapons on/in all state institutions. Second, if a state owned institution is made "gun free" then we should demand well armed and well trained guards to protect us at a specific ratio of guards to occupants. Third, private institutions should be allowed to be "gun free" if they wish. However, if someone with a CC permit is killed or injured within that institution due to an assault (particularly with a firearm), there should be an opportunity for a huge lawsuit. If the private institution is going to deprive a citizen of the legal ability to defend himself, then they should assume the responsibility to protect that individual against any and all possible assaults that the individual could have defended himself from with his legally carried weapon.

So, if Uber-mart won't let me in with my gun and I am assaulted in their store, then I should be able to sue for damages in civil court. If Uber-mart is going to disarm me, then it is their duty to protect me. Faced with the possibility of huge lawsuits or providing ample numbers of armed guards in their stores, they might just decide its better to let me carry my gun in.

(I'm saying 'I/me', but for reference, I don't have a CC permit).

 

[LMTC]

George I have to disagree with you on part of this. A private institution---store or whatever---should have every prerogative to declare itself gun free with no obligation whatsoever. The individual can decide whether or not to shop or enter. Locally a few stores initially posted no gun signs, and enough patrons made it clear they would no longer patronize....policy changed. Still, I believe in individual freedom and responsibility. Now if that store or institution in some way offers assurance of a safe environment but does not take adequate & reasonable precautions (yes, I know....a court/jury will define those terms in the event of an incident) , hammer them.

And I do agree that public (i.e., tax supported) institutions--schools, museums, government offices--should NOT be declared gun free anymore than they can be declared freedom of speech free, or freedom against self-incrimination free, and so on.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

A private institution---store or whatever---should have every prerogative to declare itself gun free with no obligation whatsoever. The individual can decide whether or not to shop or enter.

This may vary from state to state, but if you are a legal CCW permit holder, and you walk into a store that has a "No Guns" policy while carrying your weapon in your concealed holster, you are not breaking any laws. You have the legal right to carry anywhere that your state's law permits you to carry, if a business has a "No Guns" sign on their door there is no legal standing to make you remove your gun from the store. . . again this may or may not be true in your state. But other than a paper sign on the doorway, what prevents you from wearing your weapon in their store? 99.9% of stores do not security screen you when you enter. So the only thing that prevents you entering the store with a legal weapon is a paper sign taped to the glass door.

Now I am in one of those who would gladly tell the clerk/manager/owner etc that if I am not to carry a gun then I would expect them to protect me, and I would hold them liable if they didn't. I'd also point out that they would lose me as a customer, etc.

 

[N80]

George I have to disagree with you on part of this. A private institution---store or whatever---should have every prerogative to declare itself gun free with no obligation whatsoever. The individual can decide whether or not to shop or enter.

I totally see your point. But you acknowledge the obligation of a private institution to guarantee the safety of the people they are inviting in. And you acknowledge that defining what is adequate and reasonable is the crux. They are obligated to maintain safe non-slippery floors, but they are not obligated to protect you from a meteorite. I get that. But the very existence of CC laws suggests to me that the government acknowledges a need to allow citizens to conceal and carry deadly weapons. What is that need? Does the need go away when you enter a grocery store?

Those are rhetorical questions, of course. And understand, I'm not advocating a law that says a private institution must allow guns in. I'm leaving this up to the civil courts to be determined on a case by case basis.

Locally a few stores initially posted no gun signs, and enough patrons made it clear they would no longer patronize....policy changed.

That is an ideal outcome.

Still, I believe in individual freedom and responsibility.

Me too. But in this day and age of increasing, often mindless violence, someone who makes disarming myself (which in turn exposes me to some level of risk) a criteria for doing business with them, might need to be held responsible for the policy.

 

[LMTC]

But you acknowledge the obligation of a private institution to guarantee the safety of the people they are inviting in. And you acknowledge that defining what is adequate and reasonable is the crux.

I don't think I did the former; I used an "if". I said "Now if that store or institution in some way offers assurance of a safe environment but does not take adequate & reasonable precautions..."

I don't think a business, etc. is under any obligation to guarantee me a safe environment. IF THEY DO....then they have assumed some obligation. That's the law in Wayne's World, at least. If I want a piece of Popeye's chicken, and I venture to the only all-night Popeye's in the area, and get mugged going to Popeye's, or even in their lot, are they accountable? I don't believe they are. Now if they put up some signs, or do some advertising, that says "come enjoy your midnight chicken at Popeye's, a safe family restaurant", then I have a reasonable assumption that they have done something to at least make their place of business, though not the surrounding area, "safe".

I concur with Bob too. The lack of a CC law in Ohio in the past never forced me to be in a position unable to defend myself; it only served to criminalize my natural right to self-defense. I once had an acquaintance who carried everywhere..period. You only had to be with him briefly to know how unique he was (20 years with "The Company"). He went to a local HS one day, in a hurry, after a call indicating they were going to toss his son for fighting. Took his coat off in the principal's office wihtout thinking....principal made some comment about leaving the coat on next time he was in the school. He realized his faux pas, put his coat back one, end of issue. BTW, his son was suspended a few days

 

[N80]

This may vary from state to state, but if you are a legal CCW permit holder, and you walk into a store that has a "No Guns" policy while carrying your weapon in your concealed holster, you are not breaking any laws.

It has always been my understanding that in SC, if the sign says no gun, and you take one in, you are breaking the law. I may be totally wrong. Would love to see a state by state clarification on this. Not knowing for sure could get you in trouble, or at least put your CC permit in jeopardy.

But other than a paper sign on the doorway, what prevents you from wearing your weapon in their store?

Well, if it is against the law, I'm not going to do it just because I won't get caught!

 

[N80]

I don't think a business, etc. is under any obligation to guarantee me a safe environment.

Oh yes, a business is very much obligated to provide a safe environment and the guarantee is understood. Things like fire codes, building codes etc all fall under providing a safe environment. But it goes much further than that. There have been numerous successful suits against businesses where patrons are robbed in dark or poorly protected parking lots. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the litigiousness of our society, I'm just telling it like it is. But businesses are heavily obligated to provide safe environments to their patrons and this is enforceable both in civil and criminal courts.

I concur with Bob too. The lack of a CC law in Ohio in the past never forced me to be in a position unable to defend myself; it only served to criminalize my natural right to self-defense.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you mean that you carry illegaly, well that is up to you and your conscience. Civil disobedience is a legitimate form of protest in this country since the Civil Rights movement and Vietnam War protests. But don't expect a judge to cut you any slack in today's environment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not preaching. I don't even know the laws about carrying a gun in my own state and may have transgressed a few times on my own. Maybe more than a few times.

Took his coat off in the principal's office wihtout thinking....principal made some comment about leaving the coat on next time he was in the school. He realized his faux pas, put his coat back one, end of issue.

That's great. But it might have ended very differently. On the eleven o'clock news and all that. That sort of thing could end some of our careers.

 

[LMTC]

Clarification...when I said "I don't think a business is under any obligation" I am speaking of my personal belief or philosophical position, not my understanding of the law. Our laws long since stopped being about justice.

You're right, the school situation could have ended differently. But had the principal called the police, who would have been any better for it? What ethic or principle would have been served? Had any one individual been obedient to natural law rather than man-made controls at VT or any of a number of other places, those situations might have ended differently as well....and it is hard to imagine the ending would have been any worse.

I would never carry illegally, but I will also not allow the "law" to make me a helpless victim. Yes, there are places I do not go. Ohio has an open carry law, but in too many places local LEOs will arrest a person carrying openly and charge them with creating a panic. I am convinced experience plays a big part in one's attitude on most things, and certainly this topic. My attitude has always been pretty much in this direction, but being burglarized three times, robbed at gunpoint once, and having to hold a gun on someone in a situation where you truly believe yourself to be in serious danger will exacerbate those attitudes.

Anyway...just a discussion. I think you and I are more on the same page than not.

 

[N80]

I think you and I are more on the same page than not.

I think you are right.

For clarification, in SC if a property is marked with the appropriate, approved sign indicating: No Concealable Weapons Allowed, then it is against the law to enter with a weapon, even with a permit.

 

[TrippleT]

N80, that is the law here in Arkansas. If the owner posts a sign, no guns allowed, you cannot carry a concealed gun inside, even if you have a permit.