Persistent Cold Start Issue MF1560

[Mustache]

Hi everyone,

I have persistent cold starting issues with my Massey Ferguson compact tractor 1560.

What I have done so far:
New battery,
professionally rebuild starter,
Verified proper voltage to starter,
changed engine and hydraulic oil,
put in all new glow plugs,
changed fuel filter,
used additives for diesel fuel and used winter diesel,

Still at below freezing temperatures the starting is an issue.

Now I realized something else the other day:

At those cold temperatures and if the tractor has been sitting for a week or more, when starting the engine the PTO starts to turn. The PTO switch (electronic) is turned off and I don't see a light in the dash that would suggest the PTO is engaged. Yet the shaft is turning for a few seconds at typical start up speeds.

Now I believe at -20 Celsius or lower, the starter just doesn't have the power to crank the engine plus whatever is attached to the PTO and that's why I don't get the crank speed to start the tractor, even with the engine blog heater plugged in for a week straight.

When I realized the PTO spinning, I had the bushhog mounted on the back and the blades made a rumble and when I turned around I saw the bushhog running. I immediately hit the PTO switch, but it took a few more seconds for the PTO to stop. Well stopping as in loosing speed.
I am 100% certain that the switch was off (the tractor does not start with the PTO engaged) yet the PTO ran when starting.
I did do some research and read something that cold hydraulic il could be between the clutch and basically cause a friction connection in the clutch. Once the oil warms up a bit, the friction is lower and the PTO stops.
Any idea if that makes sense and what I would do about it? The hydraulic oil is only 50 hours old at best and I put in a new filter as well. I had no shavings on the hydraulic oil circuit magnet either.
For now I am planning on putting a magnetic heater on the rear axle housing, but that can't be the solution and I am not sure if that will be sufficient at minus 30 celsius.
Any ideas and suggestions welcome.

Thank you folks !!!

 

[banjodunn]

G'day -30 is not something I would want to wake up for either but have you cleaned all the ground points and cable connections? Also I would be running an ohm meter over all the battery leads checking for resistance

Jon

 

[Mustache]

Thank you for the reply banjodunn. I have done all of that already multiple times and so has the service shop that sold the tractor initially. I am at a loss what is going on.

My solution looks like I have to finish insulating and heating the tractors parking spot. Kinda stupid though...

 

[davesl708]

The PTO may be turning due to thick oil at that temp.
If the engine is cranking slowly a thinner engine oil will help. As mentioned check connections, load test the battery, measure the voltage at the starter to make sure you are getting a full 12v to the starter.
Add a cetane booster to the fuel. This will help the fuel ignite.
With the block heater on drape a packing blanket or other over the hood and down the sides to help keep the heat in.

 

[Mustache]

Hi davesl708, I have done the blanket thing, while using the thinnest engine oil the manufacturer allows. The crank speed is really what the issue is. I end up getting maybe 2 or 3 revolutions at best before the engine won't turn. However when I crank, I do get 12 Volt at the starter and the voltage drop from the battery is minimal as the battery is brand new.

does anybody know of an adjustment to the PTO clutch so it can spin more freely...or better so it won't spin on startup?

Thank you guys!

 

[Harry in Ky]

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with a 1560, so I have no hands on experience. I can see from the parts diagrams that there are at least two, and possibly three friction discs involved in the PTO brake. They appear in the diagram to be spring applied whenever the PTO clutch pack is not engaged. They look to be large enough to be quite effective. If the cold oil clutch drag is so great it overcomes the capacity of the brake to keep the drum stopped, and in turn will rotate a bush hog, then in my opinion, that's a LOT of drag. No wonder the starter and battery have a hard time. Does the PTO behave and perform as it should once the tractor is in operation, meaning it engages, releases, and of course stops? If so, and this cold start thing is the only issue, I think I would running this past a Massey service rep, not looking for help here.

 

[Mustache]

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with a 1560, so I have no hands on experience. I can see from the parts diagrams that there are at least two, and possibly three friction discs involved in the PTO brake. They appear in the diagram to be spring applied whenever the PTO clutch pack is not engaged. They look to be large enough to be quite effective. If the cold oil clutch drag is so great it overcomes the capacity of the brake to keep the drum stopped, and in turn will rotate a bush hog, then in my opinion, that's a LOT of drag. No wonder the starter and battery have a hard time. Does the PTO behave and perform as it should once the tractor is in operation, meaning it engages, releases, and of course stops? If so, and this cold start thing is the only issue, I think I would running this past a Massey service rep, not looking for help here.

HA!!! You are totally on to something. The bush hog (and for that any implement powered by the PTO) never stops immediately, it always just slows down. I never gave that much thought as I bought the tractor used and it was like that from day one, but of course it shouldn't be like that. I will see what needs to be done to correct this and talk to the service tech (a very helpful person) if this could have something to do with my cold starting problem. I wonder how this brake could get rendered ineffective?

Thank you, sometimes things are that obvious that everybody overlooks them I guess.

I will let you guys know what I find out.

 

[Harry in Ky]

I wouldn't necessarily expect the PTO to stop immediately under any type of load, only the bare shaft would do that. The shaft turning with the engine cranking and attempting to start, however, raises some concerns. I'd be curious about how much effort must be applied to the output shaft with the engine off to override the brake and get the shaft to turn?
As for involving service personnel, I guess your local dealer would be the place to start. If they can't/won't confirm that this is/is NOT a common problem with this or any other model in the series, I would be going further up the chain with my questions.

 

[Dave M7040]

To ensure that the starter has the grunt to start the engine in cold weather could you do an experiment where you disconnect anything connected to the pto.
The fact that you only get 2 or 3 revolutions even with something on the pto and turning seems puzzling.
I appreciate you had the starter rebuilt.
Have you ever considered buying an infrared temp measuring gun from Princess Auto for $25
Infrared Thermometer | Princess Auto
This would allow you to easily confirm the glow plugs are getting hot.
While the plugs are new perhaps there are problems in the circuit powering them up.
Put some of the hydraulic fluid in a glass container and put it in the freezer to see how stiff it gets. You did not mention the specifics of the fluid you used.
Dave M7040

 

[crashz]

I'm not familiar with MF tractors, but I can see a wet clutch PTO will have some rotation when disengaged and cold oil due to viscosity transferring power. But Harry mentioned a PTO brake too. I cant imagine that would start at all with a brake applied and PTO engaged enough to turn it. Sounds like the problem is in this area to me.

It must be some engine/drivetrain resistance, otherwise, if it were due to fuel or GP related, it would spin over pretty good but not catch.

Related, but I don't think its the main problem, the fluid spec'ed by most manufactures is usually woefully out of date. Most dealers are much more knowledgeable. I run synthetic in my tractors (5w-40) and wouldn't hesitate to use 0W-40 JD oil in them if they needed to run a lot in the winter. Same goes for hydraulic oil. You need one that meets spec and flows well at -20 degrees C.