Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?) *DELETED*

[cisco]

For what you seem to need, a 357 cal.revolver (I've a S&W "California Highway Patrol" model that's fairly light weight). You can practice with cheap 38 loads, and won't get arm fatigue or start flinching, but can put in a "hot" load in 357 cal. when you're out on your farm, or when stowed under your bed for self defense. If you wish a semi-auto in modest but reasonably effective caliber (with lots of cheap ammo around) - 9mm, or for a more power, a 40 cal (I've Glocks - there's LOTS of fine alternatives). For plinking, a .22 cal. Ruger is classic, and fun.
Yup, there's lots of pocket cannons around, but you probably won't shoot them much (cartridge cost, real noisey, recoil).

 

[RanchMan]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

There are definite +’s and -‘s for both semi-autos and revolvers in a defensive situation. My response does not address these (this is an unending debate that will not be resolved here), but instead address the perception of needing a "training gun" for the newcomer to handguns.

Although your opinion (and others) may very well be based on good intentions, I can not in good conscience say I agree with it.

<font color="blue"> Now I like autos, but I think a double-action revolver is MUCH safer for the beginner because is far easier to understand.</font>

I do not find semi-autos "complicated" to understand, nor do I question the mental capability of the average "newcomer" to grasp the concepts involved. I believe this statement employs faulty reasoning, and, well honestly, is a somewhat aloof and arrogant opinion to hold oneself in such high regard regarding their intelligence and level of responsibility compared to the typical newcomer to handguns. I think it is important for all of us who are experienced within the field of firearms to remember that just because we may have more knowledge on this subject, we are not inherently more intelligent than those who simply haven’t learned yet. Educated, sure - intelligent, no.

<font color="blue"> The tragic results of confusion about all of these are found frequently on the evening newscast. </font>

I won't go in to all the factors you bring up as to how a semi-auto works as I see nothing wrong with the technical aspects you mention - but I strongly disagree with the implied "extreme danger" associated with semi-autos that you put forth. Good, straight forward training and practice are MORE than sufficient to overcome these perceived "dangers." (look at those "newscasts" keeping this in mind.)

Where you (and others) see "problems" I see "characteristics." There is nothing inherently "dangerous" about today’s modern semi-auto firearms. The real problems arise when people fail to follow fundamental safety guidelines and follow up with continual practice/familiarization on and off the range. (i.e. NEVER pointing a gun at something an individual doesn’t intend to shoot, keeping the finger out of the trigger guard/off the trigger until the sight picture is formed, consider what is beyond the target, etc. etc. etc.)

There is nothing complex or inherently dangerous about loading/unloading/checking load status of a semi-auto. It is a procedure, and one with just a few more steps than that of a revolver. Training/practice is all that is required to safely acquire this "skill."

Admittedly I (as some others on this thread) are "well versed" in the whole firearm area, but I do not think it is (a) useful or (b) accurate to intimidate new shooters with regards to the "lack of safety" or "inherent dangers" associated with semi-autos. I have no problem with education - after all, we were asked a question, we should answer; but at the same time, we be careful in how we look at our guns. There is nothing "mysterious" about a semi-auto, and we be careful not to propagate such a view to make ourselves look sagacious. Semi-auto handguns should be respected and understood - not feared.

I see no need to only allow "big boys" to use semi-autos. Over the years, I myself have taught a number of people how to shoot handguns and started many of them out on a semi-auto . (Several who never even touched a gun before they met me.) I’ve yet to have any of them hurt themselves, anyone around them, or anything around them. Anybody willing to take the time and effort to learn can successfully (and SAFELY) start out on a semi-auto. ‘Course if one’s approach is lackadaisical and they lack the commitment, they shouldn’t try and learn on a semi-auto or ANY OTHER HANDGUN as far as I’m concerned.

Even if you (or others) still disagree with me, hopefully you at least understand where I am coming from.

 

[higgy]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

I have been playing lately wit a .454 Casull and a Magnum research .500 S&W. Both are a lot of fun, but a bit punishing when using full house rounds. The mag resach .500 is attached.

One other thing in general a wheel gun is not as touchy if you just through in into you glove box.



I do however perfer a semi-auto for protection, I use a .45 ACP and the CFO uses a Walther .40.

Any gun will work as long as you take the time to understand how and why it works. When you start to get into semi-autos this is more important as there are transferbars, de-cockers, DA, SA or combination first shot DA with all the rest of the clip in SA to concider. Please take the time to understand how the gun will operate in all condtions.

Many accidents happen as the ower understands the gun and gives it to someone else ie the CFO without proper instrcution and range time.

Ranchman was posting his reply while I typed this, and i must say that I agree with him on the whole hartedly. Spending time on the range. know you equipment and know how it acts is the key.
Just my 0.02.

Dane

 

[Junkman]

Since the subject has come up, I am wondering the value of a Colt Detective Special Revolver.... 2" barrel... Colt Blue. The gun is like new in the original box. I don't think that it was ever fired, or if it was, it was before I got it from the gun dealer in 1973. Thanks.....

 

[Bird]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

RanchMan, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and you are obviously much more of a gun enthusiast than I, but my years of experience have led to agree with disk drive eng much more than with you and higgy on this topic, so I'll try to explain why.

When I started on the police department, everyone was issued either a Colt or S&W .38 special revolver, 4" barrel. However, departmental regulations permitted officers to carry anything they wanted on duty as long as it was .38 or larger, Colt or S&W. Quite a number of officers carried the old .45 autos. And "accidents" were common, as evidenced by the bullet holes in the locker rooms, cars, etc. and even some officers accidentally shot by themselves, some shot by other officers in accidental discharges. I can recall many accidents by officers using automatics, and only one by a revolver.

I know personally of one incident in which an officer would have shot a suspect in defense of his and his partner's life if he'd been able to get his automatic to shoot!

I also know of an incident in which two officers were in one of those very rare gunfights in which they emptied their automatics, reloaded another clip, but in the heat of battle forgot that you have to manually cycle that first round into the chamber. They were hopelessly pulling their triggers, wondering why their guns didn't work, when they were killed.

I was there many years before we had a chief with the guts to prohibit the carrying of automatics, and the accidents ceased.

Then when I took the FBI pistol shooting course at Quantico, we were primarily using revolvers, but had a couple of days with the automatics. I told the instructor there was no need for me to participate with the automatics since I would never consider carrying one in a situation in which my life might depend on it. He said, "You never know." And I said, "Yes, I do. I'd resign before I'd carry one." Now of course I do like automatics for shooting for fun, and that instructor told me how great and reliable the newer ones are. It jammed on the second shot with him standing there watching, so he didn't have anything more to say. But the rest of the time, it worked fine and I had fun shooting it so long as no one's shootin' back. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Of course, since the world's constantly changing, my department finally had enough young officers who wanted the automatics (more bullets; spray and pray), we had a chief who decided to try issuing automatics to all new officers. The first shipment had to be sent back because so many were defective.

So, yes, all the good and great things you said about automatics are true for a gun enthusiast who takes very good care of his weapon, is very careful, and spends a lot of time training and practicing, etc. But will the average homeowner awakened in the middle of the night, or anyone in a gunfight with the adrenaline flowing, remember all those "uncomplicated" procedures?

So . . ., I really like automatics for fun, target shooting, varmint shooting, even hunting, but trust my life to one; never.

 

[shvl73]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

With an auto, I would hope someone would put a lot of rounds through it, using the brand & type of ammo they intend to carry, before relying on it for protection. My 70 series Colt is rather picky about the type of ammo used. I think a little attention to the feed ramp may cure it, but I haven't taken the time. My S&W 4556 will fire most anything you put through it with no fuss. It's DA trigger is nice & simple, no safetys to think about, but the heavy pull makes accuracy suffer a bit & it's a little heavy for a carry piece.
For a defensive gun, I would choose simple & reliable over accuracy. It seems harder to prove imminent & lethal danger unless the threat is right on top of you. It's as if you have to wait until the assailant has caused grievous harm to you or a loved one before you are allowed to act. Some jury verdicts seem to be more about making a anti-gun statement than about common sense justice. Just an opinon of course, & you know what they say those are like...
... some days I simply have one & some days I am one.

 

[fivestring]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

Very good, Bird.
More firepower was the reason our Dept. went to S&W .40 semi-autos. My thoughts are, if you haven't hit it in 6 tries, run away! Find a new line of work!
I miss the .357's. I bought my old revolver when we switched out.

 

[higgy]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

Bird,

I was not saying that autos are better than wheel guns bay any stretch.

What I was trying to say was, if you buy a gun, and if you are going to carry it, understand it.

As you know being a retired police officer, a profession that I personally think is highly under valued in these days, you know that most people do not train, and expect to use their guns. This is bad.

If a person goes to the range, takes courses and uses the gun a lot there is a better possibility that they will not hurt themselves or OTHER PEOPLE when not intending to.

I also am of the opinion that if a situation gets to a point that a gun is needed, you should have left a long time ago, these are not ego boosters or an insurance policy.

Have you (the gun owner) truly sat down and thought through the scenario that would have you use a gun? I have, and I do not like the answer very much. These are not to bluff with as you know.

I don't carry anymore, and since I now have young kids they are kept in a gun safe and would do no good in a hostile situation anyway.

What I do think is that more time at the range, courses taken and using the gun in a variety of ways is the best thing to do, auto or wheel.

Dane

 

[RanchMan]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

Bird -

Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but your stories of "accidents" and life-threatening situations does nothing to invalidate the points I made.

I appreciate the issues associated with revolver vs. auto in a defensive situation, however, please go back and read the second sentence in my previous post - I specifically state that my response was NOT intended to justify one type of handgun over the other in regards to a defensive situation because this is an ongoing and unending debate and we won’t resolve it here.

My post (and point) was that a beginners can successfully use a semi-auto handgun without hurting themselves, people around them, or objects around them if they follow fundamental rules of safety and don't approach things half-way. This is a fact - period, end of sentence. I can point to evidence (i.e. individuals) who have done it. Can a newbie screw up with an auto? Sure --- but so can a newbie with a revolver (seen it happen.) Thanks, but I’ll take an individual who is serious, thoughtful, and committed about his learning to use a semi-auto over an uncommitted, half-way, "using half his brain" student using a revolver any day of the week (‘Course, I’d send such a revolver student home anyway.). A Revolver is not "safer" than a semi-auto (or vice-versa). When it comes to modern firearms, safety applies to the actions of the shooter, not the build of the gun.

Now, can "accidents" happen (i.e. shooting ones foot off, a hole in the wall, another person at the range, etc....) with an auto. Certainly. BUT, again, I will point to the individuals who do such and I will say 100% of them DIDN'T FOLLOW BASIC SAFETY RULES. This goes for your cop friends that "accidentally" introduced those bullet holes in to cars and such too. Just because they’re a cop doesn’t make them all knowledgeable about the law nor does it make them "all-knowing" when it comes to handguns (or any gun) for that matter.

Defensive Handgun Soapbox /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
If you are happy as a revolver as your defensive weapon, I have no problem with that. You've made your choice. I have used autos AND revolvers as my primary defensive weapon over the years under different situations. Again, my last post had nothing to do with the +'s and -'s of either in a defensive situation, simply the false statement that somehow newbies are idiots that "can't handle an auto" as their first handgun. That is a blatantly false and insulting point for anyone who is "experienced" to make.

Can auto's malfunction? Sure (look back to my earlier posts where I mention this). But people have relied on autos to defend their lives for many, many, many years with great success. Just look to the U.S. military ~80 years with the M1911 and now the M92 as the standard issue for side arms. I do not believe your chief was "brave" but simply came to the conclusion that the officers he oversaw were not willing to put in the time and effort to employ standard safety procedures (i.e. holes in cars /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) and he was worried at their ability to fall back on their training (insufficient) when it came to a panic situation. Again, I really don’t want to go into the whole revolvers vs. Semi-autos in a defensive position there are +’s and -‘s to both, but I felt your "gutsy" chief comment and "blood on the street" stories needed to be addressed.
End Defensive Handgun Soapbox

If Old_Hickory wants a revolver, that’s fine. If he wants a semi-auto, that’s fine too. If he invests the proper time, employs the proper respect, and follows BASIC safety rules of gun handling, he won’t shoot holes in cars or lockers or accidentally mame/kill someone. That was what my entire previous post was about. If you wish to disagree, well, you can, but you’ll never convince me -- too much evidence for me to ignore.

 

[fishman]

Re: Pistols(whats a good one to buy ?)

Hey Ranchman,

I can see both sides of this issue, but I'm going to have to disagree with your basic premise. That being that all semi-auto's and revolvers are equal in terms of ease of use. That's simply not the case.

All double action (DA) revolvers work pretty much the same way. The only difference being in whether you push or pull the cylinder release latch. Most are the pull variety. Other than that, what's to mess up?

With semi's, you have some that function very similar to revolvers, for example the Glock. Insert magazine pull slide and release, pull trigger as needed. No brainer. I would have no problem recommending a gun like this to a casual user who wanted a gun for protection.

However, you know as well as I do that there are numerous other iterations of semi-autos. Besides the safety trigger of the Glock and some others, there's DA only, DA followed by single action (SA), some with decocking devices, others drop the hammer, some safeties are pushed down, others push up. Some can be cocked and locked, others can't due to firing pin design. Some have grip safeties or magazine disconnects as well. Then there's limp-wrist induced failures to feed. Some will only feed certain types of ammo, such as hardball.

One other thing before I close. A .357 revolver allows the use of greatly reduced power loads for the novice to learn on. This helps prevent the flinch that new shooters can acquire and which can be almost impossible to unlearn. Semi's are designed to work in a much narrower range of ammo performance.

Disclaimer: If somebody is learning on just one type of semiauto, and is serious about it, they shouldn't have any problem mastering it.