Pit Bull Kills Another Kid

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   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid #31  
LMTC said:
So what is the point of this? I did take one and the first thing the Prof said was that this was not going to be a piece of cake course despite what many people seemed to think.

Well, I geuss since I went for a science degree (although I hated math, but can't you tell due to my great grammer?) none of the classes I took were because I thought they would be easy. Guess my prof's figured the same thing.

First thing I was told in statistics class, which I always remember, is that statistics are open for interpretation (sp?), and depending on who's doing the interpreting (sp?), they can be made to make a case for anything, particularly if your looking for money.
 
   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid
  • Thread Starter
#32  
Hasn't everyone read How to Lie with Statistics by Darrell Huff?:D Of course, not all statistics are lies; you just have to learn to sort out the truth.:rolleyes:
 
   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid #33  
This is a hot topic, all right. When he was about 8 years old, my son Ibrahim was attacked by a German Shepard at the next door neighbor's house. To this day, he is frightened by dogs, and I cannot imagine him ever owning one. He was severely traumatized, and the lady who owned the dog had invited Ibrahim to her backyard to play, and reassured him the dog "wouldn't hurt anyone." Nonetheless, Ibrahim was the third child attacked by the dog, but we were not made aware of this fact.

When we lived in Santa Fe, NM some years ago, a dog that was let loose to run attacked a child of 4 years old, killed the child, and ate it. They had to autopsy the dog and found the child's remains inside the dog's stomach.

For the next few weeks there was an outcry from many people who argued that there needed to be a "leash law" to prevent the hundreds of dogs running loose all over the city from causing more injury and death.

Even so, the dog owners of Santa fe protested so much against even a leash law, that the city council would not pass any law that owners needed to be responsible for their pets. You just had to be careful of dogs, especially packs of dogs at night. That is one of the main reasons we moved from Santa Fe.
 
   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid #34  
"What pit bulls can teach us about profiling"
-- Excerpted from "The New Yorker, A Critic At Large"

By Malcolm Gladwell

1. "One afternoon last February, Guy Clairoux picked up his two-and-a half-year-old son, Jayden, from day care and walked him back to their house in the west end of Ottawa, Ontario. They were almost home. Jayden was straggling behind, and, as his father's back was turned, a pit bull jumped over a back-yard fence and lunged at Jayden. "The dog had his head in its mouth and started to do this shake," Clairoux's wife, JoAnn Hartley, said later. As she watched in horror, two more pit bulls jumped over the fence, joining in the assault. She and Clairoux came running, and he punched the first of the dogs in the head, until it dropped Jayden, and then he threw the boy toward his mother. Hartley fell on her son, protecting him with her body.

"JoAnn!" Clairoux cried out, as all three dogs descended on his wife. "Cover your neck, cover your neck." A neighbor, sitting by her window, screamed for help. Her partner and a friend, Mario Gauthier, ran outside. A neighborhood boy grabbed his hockey stick and threw it to Gauthier. He began hitting one of the dogs over the head, until the stick broke. "They wouldn't stop," Gauthier said. "As soon as you'd stop, they'd attack again. I've never seen a dog go so crazy. They were like Tasmanian devils." The police came. The dogs were pulled away, and the Clairouxes and one of the rescuers were taken to the hospital. Five days later, the Ontario legislature banned the ownership of pit bulls. "Just as we wouldn't let a great white shark in a swimming pool," the province's attorney general, Michael Bryant, had said, "maybe we shouldn't have these animals on the civilized streets."

Pit bulls, descendants of the bulldogs used in the nineteenth century for bull baiting and dogfighting, have been bred for "gameness," and thus a lowered inhibition to aggression. Most dogs fight as a last resort, when staring and growling fail. A pit bull is willing to fight with little or no provocation. Pit bulls seem to have a high tolerance for pain, making it possible for them to fight to the point of exhaustion. Whereas guard dogs like German shepherds usually attempt to restrain those they perceive to be threats by biting and holding, pit bulls try to inflict the maximum amount of damage on an opponent. They bite, hold, shake, and tear. They don't growl or assume an aggressive facial expression as warning. They just attack.

"They are often insensitive to behaviors that usually stop aggression," one scientific review of the breed states. "For example, dogs not bred for fighting usually display defeat in combat by rolling over and exposing a light underside. On several occasions, pit bulls have been reported to disembowel dogs offering this signal of submission."

In epidemiological studies of dog bites, the pit bull is overrepresented among dogs known to have seriously injured or killed human beings, and, as a result, pit bulls have been banned or restricted in several Western European countries, China, and numerous cities and municipalities across North America. Pit bulls are dangerous.


Of course, not all pit bulls are dangerous. Most don't bite anyone. Meanwhile, Dobermans and Great Danes and German shepherds and Rottweilers are frequent biters as well, and the dog that recently mauled a Frenchwoman so badly that she was given the world's first face transplant was, of all things, a Labrador retriever.

When we say that pit bulls are dangerous, we are making a generalization, just as insurance companies use generalizations when they charge young men more for car insurance than the rest of us (even though many young men are perfectly good drivers), and doctors use generalizations when they tell overweight middle-aged men to get their cholesterol checked (even though many overweight middle-aged men won't experience heart trouble).

Because we don't know which dog will bite someone or who will have a heart attack or which drivers will get in an accident, we can make predictions only by generalizing. As the legal scholar Frederick Schauer has observed, "painting with a broad brush" is "an often inevitable and frequently desirable dimension of our decision-making lives."

Another word for generalization, though, is "stereotype," and stereotypes are usually not considered desirable dimensions of our decision-making lives. The process of moving from the specific to the general is both necessary and perilous. A doctor could, with some statistical support, generalize about men of a certain age and weight. But what if generalizing from other traits-such as high blood pressure, family history, and smoking-saved more lives?

Behind each generalization is a choice of what factors to leave in and what factors to leave out, and those choices can prove surprisingly complicated. After the attack on Jayden Clairoux, the Ontario government chose to make a generalization about pit bulls. But it could also have chosen to generalize about powerful dogs, or about the kinds of people who own powerful dogs, or about small children, or about back-yard fences-or, indeed, about any number of other things to do with dogs and people and places. How do we know when we've made the right generalization?

3. Pit-bull bans involve a category problem, too, because pit bulls, as it happens, aren't a single breed. The name refers to dogs belonging to a number of related breeds, such as the American Staffordshire terrier, the Staffordshire bull terrier, and the American pit bull terrier-all of which share a square and muscular body, a short snout, and a sleek, short-haired coat. Thus the Ontario ban prohibits not only these three breeds but any "dog that has an appearance and physical characteristics that are substantially similar" to theirs; the term of art is "pit bull-type" dogs. But what does that mean?

Is a cross between an American pit bull terrier and a golden retriever a pit bull-type dog or a golden retriever-type dog? If thinking about muscular terriers as pit bulls is a generalization, then thinking about dangerous dogs as anything substantially similar to a pit bull is a generalization about a generalization. "The way a lot of these laws are written, pit bulls are whatever they say they are," Lora Brashears, a kennel manager in Pennsylvania, says. "And for most people it just means big, nasty, scary dog that bites."

The goal of pit-bull bans, obviously, isn't to prohibit dogs that look like pit bulls. The pit-bull appearance is a proxy for the pit-bull temperament-for some trait that these dogs share. But "pit bullness" turns out to be elusive as well. The supposedly troublesome characteristics of the pit-bull type-its gameness, its determination, its insensitivity to pain-are chiefly directed toward other dogs.

Pit bulls were not bred to fight humans. On the contrary: a dog that went after spectators, or its handler, or the trainer, or any of the other people involved in making a dogfighting dog a good dogfighter was usually put down. (The rule in the pit-bull world was "Man-eaters die.")

A Georgia-based group called the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dog's stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way.

Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund.

"We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs," Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. "I've tested half of them. And of the number I've tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children."

It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. "There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs," the writer Vicki Hearne points out. "Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody."

Then which are the pit bulls that get into trouble? "The ones that the legislation is geared toward have aggressive tendencies that are either bred in by the breeder, trained in by the trainer, or reinforced in by the owner," Herkstroeter says.

A mean pit bull is a dog that has been turned mean, by selective breeding, by being cross-bred with a bigger, human-aggressive breed like German shepherds or Rottweilers, or by being conditioned in such a way that it begins to express hostility to human beings. A pit bull is dangerous to people, then, not to the extent that it expresses its essential pit bullness but to the extent that it deviates from it. A pit-bull ban is a generalization about a generalization about a trait that is not, in fact, general. That's a category problem

Does the notion of a pit-bull menace rest on a stable or an unstable generalization? The best data we have on breed dangerousness are fatal dog bites, which serve as a useful indicator of just how much havoc certain kinds of dogs are causing. Between the late nineteen-seventies and the late nineteen-nineties, more than twenty-five breeds were involved in fatal attacks in the United States. Pit-bull breeds led the pack, but the variability from year to year is considerable.

For instance, in the period from 1981 to 1982 fatalities were caused by five pit bulls, three mixed breeds, two St. Bernards, two German-shepherd mixes, a pure-bred German shepherd, a husky type, a Doberman, a Chow Chow, a Great Dane, a wolf-dog hybrid, a husky mix, and a pit-bull mix-but no Rottweilers.

In 1995 and 1996, the list included ten Rottweilers, four pit bulls, two German shepherds, two huskies, two Chow Chows, two wolf-dog hybrids, two shepherd mixes, a Rottweiler mix, a mixed breed, a Chow Chow mix, and a Great Dane. The kinds of dogs that kill people change over time, because the popularity of certain breeds changes over time.

The one thing that doesn't change is the total number of the people killed by dogs. When we have more problems with pit bulls, it's not necessarily a sign that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs. It could just be a sign that pit bulls have become more numerous.

"I've seen virtually every breed involved in fatalities, including Pomeranians and everything else, except a beagle or a basset hound," Randall Lockwood, a senior vice-president of the A.S.P.C.A. and one of the country's leading dogbite experts, told me.

"And there's always one or two deaths attributable to malamutes or huskies, although you never hear people clamoring for a ban on those breeds. When I first started looking at fatal dog attacks, they largely involved dogs like German shepherds and shepherd mixes and St. Bernards-which is probably why Stephen King chose to make Cujo a St. Bernard, not a pit bull. I haven't seen a fatality involving a Doberman for decades, whereas in the nineteen-seventies they were quite common. If you wanted a mean dog, back then, you got a Doberman. I don't think I even saw my first pit-bull case until the middle to late nineteen-eighties, and I didn't start seeing Rottweilers until I'd already looked at a few hundred fatal dog attacks. Now those dogs make up the preponderance of fatalities. The point is that it changes over time. It's a reflection of what the dog of choice is among people who want to own an aggressive dog."

There is no shortage of more stable generalizations about dangerous dogs, though. A 1991 study in Denver, for example, compared a hundred and seventy-eight dogs with a history of biting people with a random sample of a hundred and seventy-eight dogs with no history of biting. The breeds were scattered: German shepherds, Akitas, and Chow Chows were among those most heavily represented. (There were no pit bulls among the biting dogs in the study, because Denver banned pit bulls in 1989.) But a number of other, more stable factors stand out.

The biters were 6.2 times as likely to be male than female, and 2.6 times as likely to be intact than neutered. The Denver study also found that biters were 2.8 times as likely to be chained as unchained. "About twenty per cent of the dogs involved in fatalities were chained at the time, and had a history of long-term chaining," Lockwood said.

"Now, are they chained because they are aggressive or aggressive because they are chained? It's a bit of both. These are animals that have not had an opportunity to become socialized to people. They don't necessarily even know that children are small human beings. They tend to see them as prey."

In many cases, vicious dogs are hungry or in need of medical attention. Often, the dogs had a history of aggressive incidents, and, overwhelmingly, dog-bite victims were children (particularly small boys) who were physically vulnerable to attack and may also have unwittingly done things to provoke the dog, like teasing it, or bothering it while it was eating.

The strongest connection of all, though, is between the trait of dog viciousness and certain kinds of dog owners. In about a quarter of fatal dog-bite cases, the dog owners were previously involved in illegal fighting. The dogs that bite people are, in many cases, socially isolated because their owners are socially isolated, and they are vicious because they have owners who want a vicious dog.

The junk-yard German shepherd-which looks as if it would rip your throat out-and the German-shepherd guide dog are the same breed. But they are not the same dog, because they have owners with different intentions.

"A fatal dog attack is not just a dog bite by a big or aggressive dog," Lockwood went on. "It is usually a perfect storm of bad human-canine interactions-the wrong dog, the wrong background, the wrong history in the hands of the wrong person in the wrong environmental situation. I've been involved in many legal cases involving fatal dog attacks, and, certainly, it's my impression that these are generally cases where everyone is to blame. You've got the unsupervised three-year-old child wandering in the neighborhood killed by a starved, abused dog owned by the dogfighting boyfriend of some woman who doesn't know where her child is. It's not old Shep sleeping by the fire who suddenly goes bonkers. Usually there are all kinds of other warning signs."

Jayden Clairoux was attacked by Jada, a pit-bull terrier, and her two pit-bull-bullmastiff puppies, Agua and Akasha. The dogs were owned by a twenty-one-year-old man named Shridev Caf? who worked in construction and did odd jobs. Five weeks before the Clairoux attack, Caf?s three dogs got loose and attacked a sixteen-year-old boy and his four-year-old half brother while they were ice skating. The boys beat back the animals with a snow shovel and escaped into a neighbor's house. Caf was fined, and he moved the dogs to his seventeen-year-old girlfriend's house. This was not the first time that he ran into trouble last year; a few months later, he was charged with domestic assault, and, in another incident, involving a street brawl, with aggravated assault.

"Shridev has personal issues," Cheryl Smith, a canine-behavior specialist who consulted on the case, says. "He's certainly not a very mature person." Agua and Akasha were now about seven months old. The court order in the wake of the first attack required that they be muzzled when they were outside the home and kept in an enclosed yard.

But Caf did not muzzle them, because, he said later, he couldn't afford muzzles, and apparently no one from the city ever came by to force him to comply. A few times, he talked about taking his dogs to obedience classes, but never did. The subject of neutering them also came up-particularly Agua, the male-but neutering cost a hundred dollars, which he evidently thought was too much money, and when the city temporarily confiscated his animals after the first attack it did not neuter them, either, because Ottawa does not have a policy of pre?ptively neutering dogs that bite people.

On the day of the second attack, according to some accounts, a visitor came by the house of Caf?s girlfriend, and the dogs got wound up. They were put outside, where the snowbanks were high enough so that the back-yard fence could be readily jumped.

Jayden Clairoux stopped and stared at the dogs, saying, "Puppies, puppies." His mother called out to his father. His father came running, which is the kind of thing that will rile up an aggressive dog. The dogs jumped the fence, and Agua took Jayden's head in his mouth and started to shake. It was a textbook dog-biting case: unneutered, ill-trained, charged-up dogs, with a history of aggression and an irresponsible owner, somehow get loose, and set upon a small child.

The dogs had already passed through the animal bureaucracy of Ottawa, and the city could easily have prevented the second attack with the right kind of generalization-a generalization based not on breed but on the known and meaningful connection between dangerous dogs and negligent owners. But that would have required someone to track down Shridev Caf? and check to see whether he had bought muzzles, and someone to send the dogs to be neutered after the first attack, and an animal-control law that insured that those whose dogs attack small children forfeit their right to have a dog.

It would have required, that is, a more exacting set of generalizations to be more exactingly applied. It's always easier just to ban the breed.
 
   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid #36  
Hakim-great post!

Sigarms, no one is attacking you personnally. Why cut the thread?

Sigarms said:
You may laugh, but other than the fact my hypothetical (sp?) thread is dealing with humans, no difference between the analogy dealing with animals (which men are).

That said, come on to my property and if by chance I'm not around and a dog in my care does harm to you, it's your fault, and I seriously suggest you don't try to "take care of the dog".

Talk about hypothetical...


Sigarms said:
Heck, I'd be willing to bet more guns have killed people than any type of pit bull. Why not talk about eliminating guns?

Fortunately, when a gunowner commits a big enough crime, he loses that privilege. Unfortunately, when a bad dog owner's dog commits a heinous act, it usually involves a lawsuit against his homeowner's insurance (if any) and not much more than a slap on the owner's hand (and the dog goes down). Very unusual to lose any dog ownership privileges. Just that the insurance corp will refuse or surcharge for various breeds.
 
   / Pit Bull Kills Another Kid #37  
Kyle

Personally, one way I judge a man is by the way he treats his dog. That is not to say a pet has to live in the house, or even be a true part of the family, but bottom line, owning a pet is a responsibility. I live in a state where people would rather just shoot a strange dog than to see if it is actually someoneç—´ pet. Through volunteer work, I have also seen how first hand how people abuse and neglect animals.

Who said you can judge a society by the way it treats animals?

You would also be very surprised if you were to take some FBI seminars pertaining to the correlation (sp?) between animal abuse/neglect, and how the people who commit the abuse interact and "developed" in society.

My wife also dose volunteer work with the court system and social services. Again, you would be surprised at the correlation between how people deal with animals and their own families.

Bird's comments were very general and broad, but any way you cut it, his point is there is no reason for such dangerous dogs (AKA bully breed).

Again, that is what I find unacceptable, and yes, somewhat offensive.

Although I don't feel personally attacked, being honest, I do feel that there is some bias with the moderators, particularly Bird. I view a moderator as I would a judge. Personal opinions should not affect the way you handle your job. I realize being a moderator comes without pay and it's strictly volunteer, however that is no excuse.

I did find Birds original post offensive. Do I really care what is said on this forum? Heck no. There are more important things in life than what is said on an internet forum, particularly when it comes to social issues. However, I have been told by moderators that if someone finds a thread offensive, the thread is deleted. I was curious to see if the thread would be deleted. I'm not surprised it wasn't.

On the flip side, I found Hakim's post very informative, and useful. That writer can convey his thoughts much better than myself, and I'm sincerely grateful at this point that the thread wasn't deleted just so people can read the excerpt that Hakim has posted and form their own opinion with "facts" that I wasn't able to present. Funny, when I printed the excerpt from Hakim for my wife to read this morning, my wife pointed out that it was Mr. Lockwood who did one of the seminars that she attended.

Per Hakim's excerpt, I do however get to deal with those people who show no responsibility, don't care what their dog does. When a problem does occur and the dog in question is put down, guess what? Those same people go and get another dog. Amazingly, some procedures in acquiring a pet require nothing more than going to a shelter or paying money. That is another reason why I find Bird's general comments on "bully breeds" ignorant.

Some people are actually offended that we have a questionnaire that they are required to fill out, that we don't do same day adoptions, and we will do a home inspection before the animal is adopted. You may be surprised why people want "pets (it makes no sense to us to adopt an animal out if the animal is 都et up in an environment to fail).

Do you realize how many people want to surprise a loved one with a pet? That's your first warning sign. The second is adoptions around Christmas time.

I will be the first to admit that I was "leery" of the Terrier in my care at first. I will also be the first to admit that owning and caring for a bully breed takes more time and responsibility than owning some other breed. One issue I see is that people don't realize the time it takes to raise a dog. However, with proper supervision and training, I see no more or less issues by an informed owner who takes that time to understand that breed compared to any other pet. I have however come across people who own multiple bully breeds and seem proud of the fact that they feed all the dogs from the same dog bowl at the same time. Anyway you cut it, you are now setting yourself up for some potential serious issues, and what I find scary is people don't even realize it (and at one time when we had thirteen animals in our care, I just LOVED getting up at 0400 to feed each dog individually and to make sure each dog got the attention it needed, then having to drive an hour for work and having people wonder why I looked tuckered out).

I have also dealt with animals in shelters that had to be put down due to animal fighting (kept for court cases). Yes, they are bully breeds. What's interesting is that the animal is absolutely fine around humans, however, if another dog is in their presence, all heck will break lose. What I find shameful is that these animals were "created". I realize that due to their trainging these animals must be put down, however, I think the same should be done with the men who created these dogs. I would like to think that most people would find it offensive what the legal system does to penalize (sp?) these men (and most cases are not high profile cases like Mike Vick which also inludes federal charges).

I have also had to deal with animals other than bully breeds that had to be put down due to aggression issues (in a perfect world where people had the time and resources, I'm sure this would be an action that would not have to be taken). Temperment testing is one of the first things you need to do with an unfamilar dog. Now a dog does not need to be put down just due to some issues that have surfaced and you can observe, however, it makes you realize of potential problems, particularly if your trying to find that animal a home. I might add that any underlying (sp?) issues an animal usually has is from it's enviroment and the way it was raised. Those variables that can "set a dog off" can be hard to trace. A prime example would be a dog in your care that does fine for months as far as showing no aggression. Then, all of a sudden, it shows aggression to the point you're afraid for your life. The difference in behavior? For the first time in the dogs presence your wearing a baseball cap, and the previous owner wore a baseball cap when he beat the dog. That cap on your head triggered the response from the dog, and you never knew. Again, the problem is animals cannot speak, and at times it's hard for people to see potential issues with older dogs that have been raised in an enviroment that you have no idea about.

Again, that terrier has been in my house for close to two years now, and I love that dog like it was my own. As I mentioned before, I have never seen such loyalty and obedience in a breed such as I have seen in that Staffshire Terrier.

By the way, my comment about walking down a dark alley with the dog that Bird jumped on... Number one, I have never taken a dog down any alley, and I would never take a dog out in public where I would think there may be a chance for signs of aggression (if known) to be shown. The comment was made strictly to show the loyalty the dog can show. Most people don't understand that the terrier is more afraid of them then they are of her when she's barking. They also don't understand how to read a dogs body language and automatically (sp?) think that if a dog is barking, it's showing aggression.

I am also amazed at how some people let their children interact with any strange dog without first asking, and don't take action to make sure it doesn't happen again (going up to strange dogs). Parents will let their children run up to a strange dog and let them pet it without even first asking if it's ok. First rule of thumb, always ask the owner if it's ok to pet the dog, and never put your open hand out towards a dogs face. Always use the back of your hand, and do it slowley. Kids just come running out of the blue to pet our animals at adoption fairs and these parents don't even seem to think about what could happen (beleive me, we do).

You would also be amazed at why some people want to adopt a bully breed. With this Terrier in particular, we are very careful on the people who we screen who are interested in adopting her. Our standards for a home are even higher with a dog of this breed, and some requirements must be met before we even consider looking at a potential family.

Hopefully giving the reader some insight into what I do because I want to, and not get paid to do it, gives you a better feeling of why this issue is very important to me.

Hakim, although you may never see your son around dogs in his future, I can relate a story. A good friend of mine was also attacked as a young child, and was scared of any dog he came across (up until his late twenties). He now owns three dogs of his own, and is a wonderful, responsible pet owner.

On a side note, some people are amazed and find me a hypocrite (sp?) because I hunt and like to shoot from the bench (I did give up varmit hunting some time ago).

The pic is of a "typical day" at the house when my father came down for a visit. Keep in mind, you can't see all of the dogs:D Interesting note as well, both my father and father in law, if they could take one dog from us, it would be that Terrier in our care.
 

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