Please Help - Ford 1910 new 770B Loader Plumbing Issues

[fourbrads]

I have a great little 1910 that lacked a loader when I bought it. I found a loader from a machine (also a 1910) at Weaver's and am having trouble figuring out the plumbing.

The 1-arm loader valve (also a Ford made by Diesel kiki) has the two hoses that go to the diverter block, plus a port that is marked "T", which I assume means back to the tank. There is only one place for the hard pipe that goes from this port to go, which is atop the transmission case. Most pictures of the 1910 with this loader show the pipe connecting on the starboard side, just aft of the split point.

I checked the machined surface of the transmission for signs that there was a knock-out plug, but found none. It can't be that every 1910 that wanted a loader required a dealer to drill and tap a special hole for the hard pipe from the T port of the loader valve, right? The hard pipe has a drilled bolt and two o-rings (top and bottom) in it. My 1910 is a 1984 model (2266).

What am I missing? Really want to install this loader, but need help to do it right.

Thanks in advance,

jim

 

[fourbrads]

I must be doing something wrong or have a rare tractor. No replies.

Did manage to learn (from several hateful hours on the computer) that my 1910's serial number was too low to have that plug in the top of the transmission. There was, apparently, a hose kit that runs from this open center loader valve, along the tractor side, to a pipe plug on the side of the lift cover under the driver's seat. So, progress of a sort.

I did notice that there is a return line from the power steering box under the instrument panel that runs to the tank near the front of the trans below the panel, but the fitting for that return is not close enough for the hard line to attach there.

My new question is whether I can tee off that power steering box rubber line and save running a hose all the way to the back of the tractor. Would I risk running back pressure into the power steering system by doing that? Would it harm anything if I did?

I will add a picture when I can.

Thanks.

 

[rScotty]

I must be doing something wrong or have a rare tractor. No replies.

Did manage to learn (from several hateful hours on the computer) that my 1910's serial number was too low to have that plug in the top of the transmission. There was, apparently, a hose kit that runs from this open center loader valve, along the tractor side, to a pipe plug on the side of the lift cover under the driver's seat. So, progress of a sort.

I did notice that there is a return line from the power steering box under the instrument panel that runs to the tank near the front of the trans below the panel, but the fitting for that return is not close enough for the hard line to attach there.

My new question is whether I can tee off that power steering box rubber line and save running a hose all the way to the back of the tractor. Would I risk running back pressure into the power steering system by doing that? Would it harm anything if I did?

I will add a picture when I can.

Thanks.

I thought those old (Shibaru) Fords were wonderderful at the time and still do. I was going to ask if you were lucky enough to have power steering.... good for you. All the better Japanese tractors from that era were competing to make the best machines they could so that they could compete in a new market (which was the US, of course) where quality was known to be very important.

I have never seen one of those one-armed loaders other than in photos. Fantastic. I believe it was just a way to "show off" innovation and engineering technology.... which it certainly did.

OK. You seem to know your hydrauics, and found that the return point to the transmission sump wasn't yet incorporated into your tractor. I don't know the answer on the PS return - partly because I don't even know what type of power steering design that Ford had.

If your 1910 had simple manual steering with factory power assist cylinder on the draglink that's low flow. But it might have had a special steering box for a hydrostatically-controlled remote cylinder, or even an modern automotive complete integral power steering box. The manual+power assist type was low flow, and the second and third types used a much higher continual flow regulated by a proportioning valve with a preferential flow to the PS over any other use. So my guess would be that you could use the return point with the first type - at least without damaging anything. For the second and third type of power steering I'm not so sure. It's possible in those systems that the return flow restriction is calculated into the proportional flow control spring.

I'd look around and see if there was any other transmission cover that I could take off easily and mount a return into. But you've probably already done that. Otherwise, why not run a hose back under the seat in the OEM manner? I'm guessing it tees into the 3pt return there. Just make the hose one size larger diameter than the loader pressure lines and you should be good. There is little pressure on the return line, so even simple plumbing fittings work fine.

Looking forward to the pictures.
rScotty

 

[fourbrads]

rScotty,

Thanks very much for the reply and for giving me something to look into. I should note, however, that I don't know much about hydraulics. Well, at least enough to be dangerous. That said, I NEED to learn if I'm to maintain this tractor well enough to hand down to my son and his. It's already been cared for well in its life and I owe it that. LOVE the tractor, though. And it's perfect for my 5 acres.

I'll look into the steering engineering and let you know. And, will get some pics up ASAP. As for the OEM bit, it seems a bit ghetto, but I'd be otherwise okay with it if I wasn't thinking of potential damage for a soft line running down the side of the trans. Probably worrying too much about that though.

To your other question about getting a different trans cover, I had NOT thought of that. But, the pics I've seen place the hard line at the forward end of that cover, which looks longer on the later 1910s. I have a very nice flat spot on mine that would be perfect, but i'd have to do some pretty serious surgery to drill and tap that hole just perfectly. Something to think about going forward. That may be the logical thing, given other options, but would mean draining the trans, doing the work, then cleaning the dickens out of it.

I did not find any mention in the manual of the pipe plug in the side of the lift cover. Am not sure if that area is under pressure or not. I suppose I could rig a pressure gauge and find a fitting to test it. Probably the safe thing to do. If under pressure, would that mean it's not a place to dump back into the sump?

Thanks again for the leg up.

Jim

 

[chander]

I have a 1910 that is piped a little different than what you explain. I have the plug on the top of the transmission case next to the power steering return. My loader return line connects to the upper port on the diverter block. I also have a backhoe, that is the other lines pictured.

I also have an aftermarket loader valve on my tractor.

 

[fourbrads]

chander,

Great post. Thank you. The loader valve that came with mine appears to be the original to the 770B. It's made by Diesel Kiki, is an absolute pig of a hunk of metal, and it definitely includes a port marked "T" as you can see from my photos. I assume that is because it is an open center valve and needs fluid run through it constantly to account for the 'float' mode. Now, I have never owned a tractor with a loader, so this is all new to me. Do you have a "T" port on your aftermarket valve? Wondering if I have a option to pipe the Tank return hose into the return port of the diverter block...

Heading out to take a few more pics now.

-Jim

 

[chander]

I have a Brand Hydraulics model number LV22RFSTKAB spool. It only has an inlet and outlet ports along with the working ports and power beyond. It only uses the manufactures diagram for piping no letters on valve body.
My tractor originally had the Diesel Kiki loader valve. It was piped the way it is now with only two pipes. I don't have the old valve so I can't tell you which ports it was connected to.

 

[fourbrads]

chander,

You're giving me hope, but not sure it works with my setup. Hoping so, though.

My valve is pictured. I have three ports; "N" "P" and "T" - My assumption was that the N and P go to the diverter block, with the T going back to the tank somehow to account for the open center valve.

If I don't need the T port, my life becomes infinitely simpler.

The Tee I mentioned earlier would go to the soft line that runs from the side of the power steering box behind the instrument panel to the top of the trans (tank?).

I've also pictured the plug on the side of the lift cover that I had plans to connect the hose to (T port) if the power steering hose was not an option.

Thoughts? rScotty?



-Jim

 

[chander]

I found my original loader valve. It only has a "N" and "P" ports. Do you know if "P" is the pressure port and the "N" is the return? Could you put the "T" to the return port?

Could this valve have the power beyond option ?

Could you move this post to the Ford/New Holland owning operating? You would possibly get more responses.

 

[fourbrads]

Not really sure about power beyond. Have to read more on this.

I requested a moderator for this forum move it as you suggest.

-Jim

 

[rScotty]

I have a great little 1910 that lacked a loader when I bought it. I found a loader from a machine (also a 1910) at Weaver's and am having trouble figuring out the plumbing.

The 1-arm loader valve (also a Ford made by Diesel kiki) has the two hoses that go to the diverter block, plus a port that is marked "T", which I assume means back to the tank. There is only one place for the hard pipe that goes from this port to go, which is atop the transmission case. Most pictures of the 1910 with this loader show the pipe connecting on the starboard side, just aft of the split point.

I checked the machined surface of the transmission for signs that there was a knock-out plug, but found none. It can't be that every 1910 that wanted a loader required a dealer to drill and tap a special hole for the hard pipe from the T port of the loader valve, right? The hard pipe has a drilled bolt and two o-rings (top and bottom) in it. My 1910 is a 1984 model (2266).

What am I missing? Really want to install this loader, but need help to do it right.

Thanks in advance,

jim

Jim, lets back up a little bit. I read your original post as saying that you had found one of the vintage Ford 1-arm Loaders (model 711 or 722 probably) and want to adapt that loader to your Ford 1910. I didn't know that was possible to adapt a loader for the Ford 601 to the Ford 1910.... their frames are very different. Although anything can be done. So I guess you could do that. Keep in mind that those old loaders had a gravity drop bucket rather than a hydraulically-controlled bucket. So their loader control valve is different.
Take a look at:
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/58890-ford-601-series-2.html

Frankly I'd prefer to go with a more modern type of loader. Those old ones were mainly for cleaning stalls & feeding hay.
But that's why I was asking for some more photos. So we could see just what you have.

rScotty

 

[fourbrads]

Sorry, rScotty, I mis-typed...

When I said "1-arm loader valve," I meant to say "1-lever loader valve." My loader is a standard 770B loader (hence the title) that was made to go on this tractor.

I apologize for the confusion.

 

[rScotty]

Sorry, rScotty, I mis-typed...

When I said "1-arm loader valve," I meant to say "1-lever loader valve." My loader is a standard 770B loader (hence the title) that was made to go on this tractor.

I apologize for the confusion.

OK. That will help us get on the right track.

It doesn't matter if the loader valve is 1-lever or two lever. That's just internal geometry. It's still has to work just like a two-spool control valve with two levers - and should have the same number of ports doing the same things.

So I'm thinking your loader is the modern type. That makes it much easier, as all of those loaders made to fit the 15 to 35 hp Japanese 4wd diesels of that era were basically the same. They were open center of similar capacity. They all used a normal two-spool control valve - some with float and power beyond. The relief valve is built into the spool. They all pulled their oil through a suction filter from a common sump usually shared with a manual transmission. And they dumped unused flow continuously back into that sump (tank). Inside the transmission all those size tractors use essentially the same type seals, shaft confiuration, bearing philosophy, pump style, and drink the same trans/hydraulic fluid. Even the hose threads are common.

The more sophisticated 30+hp models sometimes had an automatic hydraulic diverter block to assure that the power steering is always positive pressure. All the rest of the flow is accessed from port at the diverter and available to the loader.
You can buy spool valves and parts through any hydraulic outlet. Surplus hydraulics from surpluscenter.com is typical.

Note that the biggest problem with this style of used loader with used hydraulic control valve is when Power Beyond is involved. Although there is a Power Beyond port on many of the standard valves, it was rarely used. To use it requires removing the PB cap and replacing an internal sleeve. These sleeves are specific to each brand of loader control valve and were often lost. Basically without the sleeve the PB port does nothing and is simply capped. With the internal sleeve installed, the PB port is active and plumbing must allow for it to flow at full pressure.

BTW, if you don't want a soft hose for a return line you can certainly plumb in a hard line. It's not difficult. Also un-necessary. There is no pressure there.
What's next?

rScotty

 

[fourbrads]

I don't think I have a power beyond port. Just the P, N and T ports. Both P and N have to run to the diverter block, if I understand this correctly.

So, I guess the only thing left to do is decide if I want to plumb the Tank port back to the hole where the hose that runs down from the power steering box is located (under the dash), or back to the side cover of the lift section under the seat. That will probably depend on whether I'll damage the power steering box by Tee-ing into that hose.

Also have to figure out what size and thread pitch/count that Tank outlet is.

You mentioned using a hose one size larger. Is that a rule of thumb for return lines not under pressure?

-Jim

 

[rScotty]

I don't think I have a power beyond port. Just the P, N and T ports. Both P and N have to run to the diverter block, if I understand this correctly.

So, I guess the only thing left to do is decide if I want to plumb the Tank port back to the hole where the hose that runs down from the power steering box is located (under the dash), or back to the side cover of the lift section under the seat. That will probably depend on whether I'll damage the power steering box by Tee-ing into that hose.

Also have to figure out what size and thread pitch/count that Tank outlet is.

You mentioned using a hose one size larger. Is that a rule of thumb for return lines not under pressure?

-Jim

If the tank outlet is a fitting that has tapered threads cut into the tank body or cover.... then it is probably BSPT (British Standard Pipe, Tapered). This is the common hydraulic tapered thread form for cast or cover parts on Japansese cars and tractors. It is almost - but not quite - the same as our normal American NPT thread.

Then you have to decide whether to stay with BSPT or switch over to US type NPT.
However, the BSPT to NPT male to female adapter is so commonly used that you can buy it in bronze at Ace Hardware.

Yes, next larger diameter is simply a rule of thumb for return lines. You can't realistically make the return line large enough to handle every crazy move the loader might make .... like suddenly dumping a load of wet sand. That will put some back pressure on the system momentarily but normally won't hurt anything.

There are probably already some good places back there to return directly to the tank sump. How about where you put new hydrulic fluid in? Could you use that orfice?
rScotty