Please help with clutch issue

Hinomotoman · Aug 26, 2012

My tractor's gears starting grinding when putting in gear. Naturally the first thing that came to my mind was "clutch". I adjusted it and nothing changed so I ran the adustment all the way to the end. Nothing changed. So I thought "OK time for a new clutch". I ordered everything new and proceded to split the tractor. I got the old parts out and inspected them. The clutch was hardley worn, the pressure plate was alright and the bearing sounded a little dry but was still working. I put all the new parts in anyway and reattched the 2 halves of the tractor (6 hours). Got all the wires, linkages and hoses hooked up and bled and started it up.

I was so excited to have it fixed and tried to put it in gear. The same grinding!

I had put my adjustments back to origianal when I installed the new parts so I figured "adjustment". I ran it all the way back out and the same thing.

This morning I tried an experiment. I hooked a cable to the tractor and without starting it, I put it in gear. I started pulling the tractor and the wheels drug just as expected. I then depressed the clutch pedal and nothing changed. So, the clutch is not releasing. I inspected all of the linkages and no damage. I checked the throwout bearing for operation before I put the tractor back together and it worked. I've disconnected the linkage from the lever on the bellhousing and moved it by hand. It has full motion in both directions. What could possibly be wrong?

The tractor has a little over 700 hours on it.

Eugene

Leejohn · Aug 26, 2012

About the only thing left is the arm that push the bearing is bent or twisted and not pushing the bearing far enough.

Don87 · Aug 26, 2012

Hinomotoman said:
My tractor's gears starting grinding when putting in gear. Naturally the first thing that came to my mind was "clutch". I adjusted it and nothing changed so I ran the adustment all the way to the end. Nothing changed. So I thought "OK time for a new clutch". I ordered everything new and proceded to split the tractor. I got the old parts out and inspected them. The clutch was hardley worn, the pressure plate was alright and the bearing sounded a little dry but was still working. I put all the new parts in anyway and reattched the 2 halves of the tractor (6 hours). Got all the wires, linkages and hoses hooked up and bled and started it up. I was so excited to have it fixed and tried to put it in gear. The same grinding! I had put my adjustments back to origianal when I installed the new parts so I figured "adjustment". I ran it all the way back out and the same thing. This morning I tried an experiment. I hooked a cable to the tractor and without starting it, I put it in gear. I started pulling the tractor and the wheels drug just as expected. I then depressed the clutch pedal and nothing changed. So, the clutch is not releasing. I inspected all of the linkages and no damage. I checked the throwout bearing for operation before I put the tractor back together and it worked. I've disconnected the linkage from the lever on the bellhousing and moved it by hand. It has full motion in both directions. What could possibly be wrong? The tractor has a little over 700 hours on it.

Eugene

You shouldn't be able to do that without a prybar. Pressure plate springs are very strong.

BIG DOOLEY · Aug 26, 2012

HAD THE SAME ISSUE WITH MY DADS SUPER C THIS SUMMER.
THE TRACTOR IS STORED ON OUR PROPERTY JUST OUTSIDE TOWN IN A POLY ARCHED ENCLOSURE.
MICE HADE MADE A NEST INSIDE THE CLUTCH HOUSING AS THEY DO MOST EVERY YEAR. SOMETIMES IN THE STARTER ALSO AND THE TRACTOR WONT START.
THE URINE IS CORROSIVE AND RUSTED THE INPUT SHAFT TO THE TRANSMISSION. LOCKED THE PRESSURE PLATE/BEARING ONTO THE SHAFT AND IT WOULD NOT PUSH THE PRESSURE PLATE BACK.
IT ALSO GRINDED WHEN PUTTING IT INTO GEAR. IF YOU START IT IN GEAR AND THE TRACTOR MOVES ONCE STARTED AND THE CLUTCH IS STILL INOPERABLE THE ASSEMBLY IS NOT MOVING.
THE SHAFT MUST BE FREE FROM BURRS, CORROSION, NICKS...
ALSO THE CLUTCH PARTS MUST BE FREE FROM DEFECTS, NICKS .... AND SLIDE EASILY ON THE SHAFT.
HOPE THIS HELPS .
TOM

Hinomotoman · Aug 26, 2012

There was no foreign matter of any kind in the bell housing. It's pretty much sealed. The bearing moves about 5/8".

Eugene

Hinomotoman · Aug 26, 2012

Don87 said:
You shouldn't be able to do that without a prybar. Pressure plate springs are very strong.

I don't think the bearing is getting to the pressure plate. It moves about 5/8". I don't know how far the bearing is supposed to move. The Massey Ferguson dealer shop manual is worthless. It gives no measurements or details. It doesn't even have "Gears grinding" in the clutch ot transmission troubleshooting section.

Eugene

BIG DOOLEY · Aug 26, 2012

OUR SUPER C HAS LOTS OF PLAY IN THE LINKAGE DUE TO WEAR. MANY TIMES A MANUAL WILL GIVE YOU THE ADJUSTMENT BY PEDAL TRAVEL NOT THE BEARING MOVEMENT AS OURS DOES. THIS IN NOT USEFUL WHEN THE PARTS ARE WORN AND THE SLOP IN LINKAGE ADDS TO THE PEDAL TRAVEL. LOOKING FOR WORN PARTS THAT MAY LIMIT THE THROW IS A CONSIDERATION.
I COULD SEE OUR BEARING MOVE IN AND OUT WHEN DEPRESSING THE CLUTCH ON THE SUPER C.
EVEN WITH VISUAL MOVEMENT IN THE BEARING THE PRESSURE PLATE WAS NOT RELEASING THE CLUTCH.
IT SOUNDS LIKE THE PRESSURE PLATE IS NOT MOVING ITS INTENDED FULL TRAVEL. YOU SHOULD SEE MOVEMENT IN THE PRESSURE PLATE RELEASING ITSELF FROM THE CLUTCH PLATE ALONG WITH THE BEARING MOVEMENT.
A GAP HAS TO BE MADE TO STOP THE FRICTION BETWEEN THE FLYWHEEL AND THE CLUTCH DISC.
MAYBE SOME SPRINGS ARE BROKEN ON YOUR PRESSURE PLATE ASSEMBLY?
IF YOUR CLUTCH DISC IS BOUND BY DIRT OR CORROSION, BURRS ON THE SHAFT... THE FLYWHEEL WILL STILL TRY TO TURN IT.
IS THERE A PILOT BEARING IN THE CRANKSHAFT FOR THE TIP OF THE TRANSMISSION SHAFT?
IF THAT BEARING IS BAD IT WILL TURN THE SHAFT TOO.
TOM

BIG DOOLEY · Aug 26, 2012

IT SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE A PILOT BEARING ISSUE.
DRAG CAUSED BY A FAILING/ FAILED PILOT BEARING IS TRYING TO TURN THE TRANSMISSION WHILE YOUR CLUTCH IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO DO.
WHEN THAT BEARING IS BAD THE ENGINE CRANKSHAFT AND TRANSMISSION INPUT SHAFT BECOME ONE
TOM

Hinomotoman · Aug 26, 2012

All of the parts are new. There is no pilot bearing. The end of the shaft is rounded to fit into it's mating surface. There is no wear in any linkages. Even when disconnecting the linkages it doesn't disengage. The clutch rod goes through the upper portion of the bell housing. The is a fork much like a shifting fork welded to this rod. This fork has a pin which holds it onto a sliding collar which the throwout bearing is pressed onto. None of this is frozen up. I greased all of the sliding surfaces before reassembly and made sure everything worked on that end.

Eugene

Eugene.

Leejohn · Aug 26, 2012

I forgot about the clutch frozen to the flywheel and if that is it, just drive it around and try and load down the tractor now and then with the brakes. Might work loose.

Hinomotoman · Aug 27, 2012

I did a little more troubleshooting. I disconnected the pedal and moved the lever by hand. It doesn't touch the pressure plate until it's an inch past the furthest adjustment on the linkage. I guess I'll split the tractor again Saturday and find out why it doesn't reach.

Eugene

BIG DOOLEY · Aug 27, 2012

WOW!
THATS QUITE A BIT.
WELL SPLITTING THE TRACTOR WILL BE EASIER WHEN IT IS STILL FRESH IN YOUR MIND.
HOPEFULLY IT IS A SIMPLE FIX THAT YOU JUST DIDN'T NOTICE THE FIRST TIME APART.
BEING ABLE TO DO YOUR OWN REPAIR WORK IS REALLY SELF GRATIFYING, EVEN IF IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER OR A FEW MISTAKES ARE MADE ONE THE WAY.
GOOD LUCK SATURDAY
TOM

zonta223 · Aug 27, 2012

Hinomotoman said:
I did a little more troubleshooting. I disconnected the pedal and moved the lever by hand. It doesn't touch the pressure plate until it's an inch past the furthest adjustment on the linkage. I guess I'll split the tractor again Saturday and find out why it doesn't reach.

Eugene

Does the tractor have a roll pin in the connection between the shaft that goes into the Clutch and the clutch lever???. Sounds as though something has moved and you don't get full movement........Just a thought

Hinomotoman · Aug 28, 2012

Yes it has a roll pin on the clutch pedal lever as well as 2 roll pins on the bearing fork. At first I thought I may have done something wrong but I'm not thinking that anymore. I'll let everyone know what I find.

Eugene

Hinomotoman · Sep 1, 2012

OK. I split the tractor again . Only took 1 1/2 hours this time but I hadn't put any sheet metal back on. The new clutch disc was stuck to the freshly machined flywheel. I had to use a deadblow hammer to get it off. I still found nothing unusual about the linkage but I still have to adjust it all the way out to work and I have about 2" of freeplay in the pedal. I'm going to get a piece of threaded rod and made a longer linkage. At least it works now. LeeJohn, you hit it right on the head. I wouldn't have thought that would have happened with new parts. Live and learn. Thanks to everybody.

Eugene

BIG DOOLEY · Sep 1, 2012

GLAD TO HEAR YOUR UP AND RUNNING.
TOM

brcisna · Sep 1, 2012

Hinomotoman,
I am curious. Did you put a new throw out bearing in the tractor when you done the rebuild? If so,,did you do a side by side comparison,,with the old TO and your new TO? Also,,do you have an actual repair manual,,you are using for putting the tractor back together? Not trying to sound like a smart alic,,,just possibly,,,giving some other ideas..If the throwout fork doesnt appear to be physically bent,,,something is not in the right position,,,,it goes without saying.
Let us know your progress.

BC

BIG DOOLEY · Sep 1, 2012

WHAT IS THE MF MODEL NUMBER # OF YOU TRACTOR AND H POWER
I FEEL YOU GOT THE WRONG BEARING OR HAVE SOMETHING INSTALLED WRONG OR A PART MISSING ALSO.
TOM

Hinomotoman · Sep 3, 2012

I did install a new throwout bearing. The diminsions were identical as far as ID. OD and thickness. The original has a slight taper on the front. The replacement is square shouldered. That would make me think it would disengage sooner. But remember it was doing the same thing with the original parts. The TO fork is cast iron. I doesn't appear to be bent. I do have the factory manual (4" thick) but it is very vague. It's a MF 220-4.

Eugene

brcisna · Sep 3, 2012

Eugene,

It is hard to tell by your avatar picture if you tractor is 4WD? it appears it is,but not sure. This really dont make sense for what you are desrcibing but,my Mitsubishi being a 4Wd has an inner and outer driveshaft. is this the way you Hino,,is?... In other words the clutch plate 'catches' on two sets of splines on each of the two driveshafts.
(I had to reclutch my bomb 6 months ago,,so voice of experience talking)
I would say at this point just go to a bolt shop and get some grade eight all thred and cut to what length you think is needed extra over your current adjustmen rod,,and give it a try.
FYI,,You should ONLY need 1/2" free play in pedal,and no more.
If you have a manual im sure you have the pieces puit back in place as required.
One stupid question. Did you have the throw fork unpinned from the bell housing?is it possible to have the fork 180 degress off?I am thinking it would easily look 'physically wrong",but is a possibility.
Also did you buy this tractor new? I think you said it only has 700 hrs on it?
Let us know your progress.

take Care,
Barry