Pole Barn advice

[Gizmo2]

Does anyone have a post foundation plan for how they connected their post to the concrete footing? I am working on my post footings now and don't want my post buried in the ground for a couple reasons. One is post rot and the other is the cost of the post themselves. I can get by with 12' post by sitting them on the top of the footing at grade where it would take 14 maybe 16 footers by going in on top of a 8 or 10 inch footing buried in the soil. It may not be much savings maybe $25 or $30 bucks a post but every buck I can save leaves me more bucks to spend on my concrete pad once the roof is up.

I don't want to hyjack the OP's post so maybe I'll just start another thread but any help would be helpful.

More money but we are going with the Perma Column. They also have post anchors used for attaching a post to concrete. Perma-Column | Permanent Foundation Systems

 

[grsthegreat]

id insulate the walls if i were you.... i never thought i needed it here myself, but in the intervening 10 years since the shop was built, ive now moved a plasma cutter, box brake and roller , plus assorted other tools in there. i had to add a 125,000 BTU gas furnace so i can use the shop in the winter. alot of heat passes thru those walls. So now im stuck with having to haul out all of my crap and shelves, and insulate the walls. much more work now then if i did it 10 years ago.

just my 2 cents worts

 

[mx842]

More money but we are going with the Perma Column. They also have post anchors used for attaching a post to concrete. Perma-Column | Permanent Foundation Systems

I looked at that system but it's a little too rich for this old country boy. I think I have decided to go with the angle brackets I am working on. As I said in another thread it's going to be bad weather wise here for the next couple days so I can work inside my shop and make up enough brackets to do all my post. I cut enough angle iron yesterday to make enough to put two on each post and I have enough plate to cut out enough 3" strips 8 or 10 inches long to weld on to the angles where I can drill a hole through to run a through bolt through. I already drilled a half inch hole on one side and I put 6 or 7 staggered 3/16 holes in the other for nail holes where I can nail teco nails into the bottom of the post. they shouldn't split the post too bad and will hold it in place until I can drill the large bolt hole to make it a permanent secure hold down system that will hopefully make any inspector that happened to show up at any time in the future.

 

[Birdhunter1]

1. Definitely will consider this.
2. The hydrant will be inside, however it isn't far at all from the house, and it is below the septic system. I don't think a bathroom would be worth the extra hassle.
3. This is part of the plan

You would be surprised how nice that bathroom in he shop is regardless of how close it is to your house. working outside.. muddy boots.. gotta go and I mean now and don't think you can bend over to remove your boots... run in the shop tracking mud anywhere, cleanup is so easy. Anyway there is my sales pitch on it.

To mount the post to the top of the concrete. Lt me go back here and say I do not simply have a 1' wall on top of the concrete floor, there is a footing under the wall and the wall is 2' tall, the floor is just 1' below the wall.

I built my own brackets out of 4" flatstock 1/4" thick. I can send you pictures of them but basicly I took a piece flat and welded two uprights on the sides of where the posts are. 3/4" holes in the uprights to allow a 5/8" bolt, 3/4" holes in the bottom plate to allow for 1/2" threaded rod epoxied into the concrete.
I do not know the epoxy that was used. I have a good friend that is a large concrete contractor that did the work (I just assisted) and he said the epoxy he used surpasses DOT and Corps of Engineers specs.

I built the brackets because I could not find what I wanted for sale, the week after I built mine I found them for sale in my local lumberyard that I had walked by them a dozen times that week probably.

I'll get pictures of my brackets up in the next day or two.

 

[boggen]

Does anyone have a post foundation plan for how they connected their post to the concrete footing? I am working on my post footings now and don't want my post buried in the ground for a couple reasons. One is post rot and the other is the cost of the post themselves. I can get by with 12' post by sitting them on the top of the footing at grade where it would take 14 maybe 16 footers by going in on top of a 8 or 10 inch footing buried in the soil. It may not be much savings maybe $25 or $30 bucks a post but every buck I can save leaves me more bucks to spend on my concrete pad once the roof is up.

I don't want to hyjack the OP's post so maybe I'll just start another thread but any help would be helpful.

I looked at that system but it's a little too rich for this old country boy. I think I have decided to go with the angle brackets I am working on. As I said in another thread it's going to be bad weather wise here for the next couple days so I can work inside my shop and make up enough brackets to do all my post. I cut enough angle iron yesterday to make enough to put two on each post and I have enough plate to cut out enough 3" strips 8 or 10 inches long to weld on to the angles where I can drill a hole through to run a through bolt through. I already drilled a half inch hole on one side and I put 6 or 7 staggered 3/16 holes in the other for nail holes where I can nail teco nails into the bottom of the post. they shouldn't split the post too bad and will hold it in place until I can drill the large bolt hole to make it a permanent secure hold down system that will hopefully make any inspector that happened to show up at any time in the future.

be carefull there. 8" to 10" depth footing in the ground could lead to bad things.

if pouring concrete to set the posts on. you need to make sure you dig down past your frost depth line. for me here in central Illinois, that is 4 to 4.5 feet depth. frost depth varies through out the US. you can by cheap sono tubes. or rather post forms. they look like cardboard. to help save on amount of concrete used. vs just digging a hole and filling it up. the sono tubes for posts will look kinda like a cone. if you are using solid posts. you can stick a piece of rebar into the top of the concrete (still half way wet that is) and then drill hole through bottom of posts.

putting rebar in while concrete is wet can be a pain lining up posts when it comes to that time. it works, but you can use a masonary bit (concrete drill bit) and a good hammer drill. to drill holes into the top of the concrete, for the rebar. doing this allows you to take your time setting up strings and getting everything level. and know exactly were to drill holes. and allows you to get everything more square and level. some times it is better to rent a concrete drill from a local machine rental place. so you are not fighting some small size drill you might already have to drill the holes.

if you go bare posts all the way into the ground. bottom of post still needs to go down to atleast the frost line level for your area. if ya don't then more than likely after a few years. you may notice a weave going on with your roof as posts rises up and down as the ground moves.

i have seen were folks have taken a post hole digger (2 man post hole digger) or one that hooks up to a tractor, skidsteer or back hoe. drill the holes they needed. then drilled 2 holes clear through bottom of posts. and then stuck rebar through. holes. dumped some concrete down into the hole first put in the post, then filled hole rest the way up with concrete. the rebar helps hold the post to the concrete so the post won't try and some how move up and out of the concrete

 

[mx842]

be carefull there. 8" to 10" depth footing in the ground could lead to bad things.

if pouring concrete to set the posts on. you need to make sure you dig down past your frost depth line. for me here in central Illinois, that is 4 to 4.5 feet depth. frost depth varies through out the US. you can by cheap sono tubes. or rather post forms. they look like cardboard. to help save on amount of concrete used. vs just digging a hole and filling it up. the sono tubes for posts will look kinda like a cone. if you are using solid posts. you can stick a piece of rebar into the top of the concrete (still half way wet that is) and then drill hole through bottom of posts.

putting rebar in while concrete is wet can be a pain lining up posts when it comes to that time. it works, but you can use a masonary bit (concrete drill bit) and a good hammer drill. to drill holes into the top of the concrete, for the rebar. doing this allows you to take your time setting up strings and getting everything level. and know exactly were to drill holes. and allows you to get everything more square and level. some times it is better to rent a concrete drill from a local machine rental place. so you are not fighting some small size drill you might already have to drill the holes.

if you go bare posts all the way into the ground. bottom of post still needs to go down to atleast the frost line level for your area. if ya don't then more than likely after a few years. you may notice a weave going on with your roof as posts rises up and down as the ground moves.

i have seen were folks have taken a post hole digger (2 man post hole digger) or one that hooks up to a tractor, skidsteer or back hoe. drill the holes they needed. then drilled 2 holes clear through bottom of posts. and then stuck rebar through. holes. dumped some concrete down into the hole first put in the post, then filled hole rest the way up with concrete. the rebar helps hold the post to the concrete so the post won't try and some how move up and out of the concrete

Again, my footing has 8 to 10" of concrete in it and here we only need to go to 18" and if the soil is good and solid at that point that is as deep as we need to go. There is one place that I had to do a little fill so that one will be deeper but for the most part the whole pad was in a cut zone. I still need to come up from the top of the footing to grade and in most places that is from between 4 to 10" and for that I will use the cardboard round forms and rebar. To hold the post brackets I now plan on putting anchor bolts into the concrete once I come up with some kind of jig to use as a guide.

I don't have the luxury of a tractor with an hole digger so all my holes are being dug by yours truly. The dirt right now is in really good condition for digging and my timing of the hole digging was purposely aimed at this time of the year. Two months from now I would need dynamite to blast a hole in that clay dirt. I also had to wait to pull out all the trees in the build site, not to wet not too dry. Yep you guessed it....no bull dozer either, just me and my old 96 ford bronco did the job and nicely I might add. I didn't have problems with but two trees out of the 28 I had to pull out. One a great big oak and the other was a huge Holly tree I didn't think I was going to get that thing out but I kept digging and yanking and it finally gave up. The hardest part was getting the stumps out of the ground once pulled over and then over to the burn pile and in some kind of position where I can have a weenie roast one day once this wind quits blowing so badly.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Mx and AJE, these are the brackets I fabbed. This oneI ran short on flat stock (it was 5"wide by 1/4" thick so I welded 2"x1/4" angle on the sides for ears to bolt to the concrete. The bolts in concrete are threaded rod that is epoxied in, the bolt through the post is a 5/8" post. For what it's worth unless you have the bigger drill bits and a big drill or drill press big enough to make these I'd just buy them.

On a building down the road similar in size to mine the contractor took a 6" wall girter and cut it into 5" pieces, expansion bolted it to the concrete and lagged it to the posts. Seemed like an easy and logical idea to me.

 

[SpringHollow]

I personally never like to encase wood (PT or not) in concrete. That creates a pretty bad environment for the wood.

Ken

 

[mx842]

Mx and AJE, these are the brackets I fabbed. This oneI ran short on flat stock (it was 5"wide by 1/4" thick so I welded 2"x1/4" angle on the sides for ears to bolt to the concrete. The bolts in concrete are threaded rod that is epoxied in, the bolt through the post is a 5/8" post. For what it's worth unless you have the bigger drill bits and a big drill or drill press big enough to make these I'd just buy them.

On a building down the road similar in size to mine the contractor took a 6" wall girter and cut it into 5" pieces, expansion bolted it to the concrete and lagged it to the posts. Seemed like an easy and logical idea to me.

Cool...they look good. That is pretty much the same plan as I am working on but I am doing it with the medal stock supply I have on hand. Actually doing it that way was a little harder but some times you gotta do what you gotta do. I have a mill and a small lathe so the holes were no problem I even drilled 7) 3/16 nail holes in the angle on the upright side to use as nailers to hold the post upright in place while I can place my braces to plum the post. You have to think like that when you are working by yourself on projects like this. The spare holes will also act as drain holes in case water ever filled up the bracket somehow. When I am done with the brackets I'll post some pics if I can figure out how to do it.

You say you can't remember what kind of sealer that was you used for the anchor bolts? Drilling holes and putting in lead anchors would probably be quicker and easier that trying to figure out the exact location of where to place the regular old anchor bolts in the wet cement and they actually match up with the bolt holes I drilled in the plate.

Thanks for your help and even though our ideas were pretty much the same it really helps to ease my mind knowing someone else did roughly the same thing and it actually worked out ok. Once I get my post anchor problem solved I can go to the next stage of my build. My trolly lift that will extend from the center of my big 12' sliding door all the way to the back of the building. I want to do this without a center support. I have a 1 1/2 ton electric chainfall on a roller frame that I use to pick parts off trucks and carry them to the back of the shop to where my small fab shop and powder coat ovens will be. I probably wont ever use the chainfall to it's capacity most of the stuff I do is less than 500 lbs and if I did ever need to unload something like a big machine like a mill or large lathe I can unload it at the door and roll it into place. The problem will be the 40' span with no support in the center and then the next problem I have is that my 10" I beams are only 20' and that means I will have to connect two together to reach the span but I think I have a plan worked out that will work. I have to build this structure before I start the rest of the building because this part will be on its own footing and not part of the building structure itself. My plan is to build this structure and test it to see if I can wheel a 1000 lb weight from one end to another with no center support without failure and if I can successfully do this without a failure then I will go forward with the rest of the building. Once the truss system is in I can then go in and put in a center support on top of the beam and use a turn buckle type system and anchor it back to each end of the beam somewhat like they do in suspension bridge construction for added support and safety.

I have already had several internet experts say I'm crazy for thinking this will ever work and will fall in a pile before a 200 lb load ever gets anywhere close to the center of the beam on my test run. I don't know maybe they are right but I'm hard headed and have to see for myself if this is true. All I have to go on is what I took out of my old building and if that worked for all those years this should work like a charm.......I hope! If it fails all I have lost is a little time and effort I got the beams for nothing that were leftover from a job they did at my sons plant he works at. hopefully I can get started on this part sometime this weekend and I'll let you know what happens.

 

[mx842]

I personally never like to encase wood (PT or not) in concrete. That creates a pretty bad environment for the wood.

Ken

That is kinda my thinking as well. I know, I know it may be overkill and I know thousands of pole barns have been built and do just fine with the post sitting on the concrete footing with wood blocks nailed to them at the bottom then back filled with dirt, mud, rock, concrete, or what ever else that can be found. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to stuff like this. I guess it's the mechanic blood in me that is always looking for another way to do things with hopes I can make things a little better.....for me that is.