Pole Barn Construction tips / heating?

NIXON · Mar 1, 2003

Slippy ,
I do pole barns for a living . I'd go with 6X6 all around if it were mine. I'd most likely use the ones that are laminated out of 2x6 (4 1/2 x 5 1/2) They tend to be Straighter with less twisting . As For insulation I'd go with a product like Astro Foil . It's kinda like a double layer of bubble wrap with foil facing . You cap nail it to the purlins ,the seal the joints with Foil tape . Makes walking up the purlins with steel fun at times , But it does work well. We hand nail most everything. ( it seems to pull the boards together better than gun nailing .)
For Girts and purlins (lying flat we use 20 d ring shanks (galvanized ) For purlins on edge we use 60 d ring shanks (hardened ) to secure them to the truss . and 16 or 20 d's where the purlins overlap . Nail spacing is 2" IE 2x4 =2nails
2x6=3nails etc... Truss hanger straps aren't abad idea either.
Good luck , John

SteveBenson · Mar 2, 2003

Slippy,

We were using 29 gauge Fabral sheet metal. We bought our barn from a lumber yard "kit". It originally came with PT 4x6. The guy we were dealing with upgraded them to 6x6, said he never sold them with the 4x6s personally. We ended using PT 6x6. The reason for my recommending the laminated 6x6s are for the reasons John mentioned below. They are much truer, stronger, dimensionally stable, and you can get then w/ only the bottoms treated to .8 CCA. We had to scrap about 10% of our poles (fortunately I ordered a few extra) because they were too bowed or twisted. Some of them also had huge deep cracks along the grain. Southern Yellow Pine (what they use for PT) is not the greatest wood in the world, especially for larger beams and posts. With laminated posts cracking is minimized as the wood used is much thinner and any such defects will likely be stabilized by adjacent plys.

We hand nailed the 20D Pole Barn nails. The nails themselves were hard enough to find in my neck of the woods (I had to order a 50# box from Home Depot). I wasn’t even going to try and find them for my nail gun. With only 2 at each purlin/girt it’s not that bad. Using a heavy hammer helps too.

I would definitely take a closer look at some of those barns using the foam board insulation. Like I said, it's pretty subtle. Maybe you could get some hints on the installation. We found that it was completely impossible to gauge the proper point to stop turning the screw. Watching the gasket compress didn’t really seem to give any good measure. We always got some compression in the foam. And with 3 guys putting in screws, everybody was getting different results.

A couple of other recommendations I thought of:
1) Make sure you get your poles long enough to extend up past you eve girders to nail the trusses to. This might seem like a no-brainer, but leave yourself plenty to play with as your holes will probably not all be at the same depth. It hard enough to get the poles into the exact position, you don’t want to be worrying about the height of the poles as you are doing this. Best to leave them a little long and top them prior to putting up the trusses (or after).

2) Use long posts on the gable ends to go all the way up to the top chord of your trusses. This will make bracing the first couple of trusses a non-issue and will be much stronger overall. The nice thing about those laminated posts is that they can easily make them in longer lengths, so they don’t gouge you on the price for the long ones.

-Steve

SteveBenson · Mar 2, 2003

John,

Being a pro from PA I'd like to hear your opinion on strap bracing. I have seen it only on a couple of large pole buildings (indoor horse arenas) put up by Morton. I've seen a 72x150 wood truss pole barn w/ steel siding and it seems that the olny bracing they used was this strap bracing. It was a heavy 1" galvanized strap placed in large Xs (from floor to eve) on the outside of the girts in all the corners of the building, both the side and end walls. They also did the same thing on the roof, placing a large Xs at the ends of the roof from ridge to eve (over the top of the pulins under the siding).

Seems cheap and strong, what's your opinion? Have you ever used it?

Thanks,
Steve

NIXON · Mar 2, 2003

Steve,
Generally we brace with OSB in the corners of the building , and 2x4 or 2x6 wind bracing in the trusses . ( it's a company thing ) I have used The strap bracing , and like it a lot . Very easy to do . I'd probabably go that way on my own buildings.
Another thing that works is using screws to Stitch the seams of the matal panels ( every 2 ft ) . This really helps . You just have to be real careful when you put the screws in not to strip out the metal . ( a bag of the next larger diameter screws helps for those you strip out ) Also , for the roof get some BOOB , Or GOOF Screws ... It can be really easy to miss a purlin (on edge) . John

CTyler · Mar 2, 2003

I am having a 50x64 building put up and I'm not crazy about the so called footing they are using. Its basicaly a concrete step stone. They haven't started yet cause of weather.

I was thinking about having a cement truck come out to fill the holes after setting the posts on thier cookie. It was suggested that I wrap the the post with tar paper. This is to keep the cement from attacking the post? It was also sugessted to drill a couple holes and put rebar through them. The posts are CCA treated.

What are your thoughts on this?

NIXON · Mar 2, 2003

Ctyler
I don't like the precast concrete pads as the tend to not sit properly in the holes . once you drop a 60+ pound concrete pad down a 4-6 ft deep by 18" wide hole , it get pretty hard to make adjustments /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gifWe generally pour concrete . Just make sure the surface is smooth . it makes setting the poles less of a chore . Also be sure that the holes are resonably well placed and that there is not a lot of loose dirt in the bottom of the holes . You don't want the poles sitting at the very edge of the concrete (as in overhanging the concrete)and you don't want the soil under the pads compacting because of loose dirt . This is especially true on the poles that carry the headers . The gable ends are a bit more forgiving .
We drill the pole bottoms for rebar,or secure blocks to the poles . It keeps the poles from being lifted.
I've never wrapped the poles ,so I don't know if it would make a difference. John

SteveBenson · Mar 2, 2003

John and Ctyler,

What about these Post Protector. Any good?

-Steve

NIXON · Mar 2, 2003

Steve,
To be honest, I've never seen them . I did book mark the home page though . I think I'll talk with the boss tomorrow and see if we can't at least look into them .
Seems like it might bee a good thing . John

Justaplain · Mar 2, 2003

The guy that put mine up 20 years ago drove abunch of BIG spikes part way in and then filled 1/3 to 1/2 with concrete. bcs

CTyler · Mar 2, 2003

Thanks, Looks interesting.

Slippy · Mar 3, 2003

In talking with builders, there seems to be two schools of thought on concrete around the post in the hole. Some say no, don't put concrete aroung the post, it will cause early failure. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Others say, no a big deal, do it. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The way I was going to do it was to dig my hole with a 16" auger at least 32" deep to get below the frost line. Next, I was going to take a bag of quikcrete (sp) and dump in the hole, and then pack it down with the end of a spud bar. Next, I set the post and back fill with dirt around it. The moisture in the ground will cause the concrete to cure, and the the post can't go anywhere because of the backfill. May put a couple of blocks to the sides to give more resitance agains up lift force, although, other than very high wind, all the natural force will be downward. I thougth about using the round concrete slabs, but after reading the above suggestions, seems like it could cause a bunch of extra work trying to level the slab so the post sits correctly. I seen others pour a bucket of water in the hole at the same time. Any thoughts on this method?

NIXON · Mar 3, 2003

slippy ,
I'd go at least 48" deep with the holes .(you'll be adding 6-12" of concrete to the bottoms of the holes) As far as dry concrete... I've done it on light structures . Carports etc....
On something heavier I believe I'd mix it with water before putting it in the holes . You could use the spud bar to compact the bottom of the holes before pouring concrete . Also after you set the poles and back fill , Tamp the holes . Just make sure not to let the poles move /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The reason I don't like dry concrete is that when you start moving the poles around in the holes to set them ,it can move a lot of the concrete to the sides of the poles . this sort of defeats the idea of a footer in the first place /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Also once you've poured the mixed "crete" into the hole you can smooth the top and let it set . Makes locating the poles SO much easier . Not that it's easy any way .
But look at it this way .... The more accurately the poles are set , the more accurate the building will be. Sort of like a slab or foundation ... if it's wrong, the rest of the structure will be to . Just take your time with this part of the construction . It'll pay off as you build the building . All the best, John

cowboydoc · Mar 3, 2003

I too would highly recommend 48", an absolute absolute minimum would be 36". We have never used concrete and most of the builders I know don't use concrete either. Personally I don't mind the concrete pads. If your hole is big enough we just use a long metal bar and tamp the pad down flat and straight. If you are 48" deep and nail the boards on the bottom I have never seen a problem.

NIXON · Mar 3, 2003

"We have never used concrete and most of the builders I know don't use concrete either. ".......
Probably won't hurt a thing . But, we frequently get building inspectors . The first thing on their list is the footers. So, we just pour concrete as a matter of course . Call it habit,or training by Pavlov /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif we also use truss hangers and through bolt all trusses that mate to the columns . But, I feel" better safe than sorry". When I do mine (that's right I don't have my own. I've been doing it for everyone but me /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I'll go footers, straps etc... All the best , John

mrcaptainbob · Mar 3, 2003

We're purchasing a really old 'farm' house. On the property is a really old farm type barn. Needs a bit minor attention on one of the first level support walls. What I was surprised at was the gable ends construction. The 2 x stock was flat faced to the siding. The building inspector said that's the req'd method of construction. The walls below the eves are 'normal' to the siding. The gable wall is VERY flexible. It's been up for many decades, so I'm a believer. What I'd like, is to understand the 'why' of this. It would seem to be stronger if they were normal like the other walls.

Anonymous Poster · Mar 4, 2003

Pea rock or crushed gravel is the best thing. It allows the moisture to get away. Them plastic do dads would seem to keep the water confined. I'll stick with pea rock thanks. I have a new horse barn 52'x72' starting next week and I'll post as it goes. I decided to have it built when the difference was only 5k.

mikell

Anonymous Poster · Mar 4, 2003

Another thing when you run water and electric also run a air line. All my buildings will have air and so will my house and the compressor will be in the shop.

mikell

SteveBenson · Mar 4, 2003

It's nice to live in an area where the difference to have it done is only 5k. Here in Southern New England no one is building these building anymore and I'm not sure too many people remember how. The only builders offerring pole barns are Morton and Lester and their prices in this area are about 3x what I see advertised in the Lancaster Farming. When I put up my 34x48x10 pole barn I figured around here it would cost 4x to have someone else put it up (and this was just for the shell of the building not including site work). I got a qoute from Lester for 30k for the shell w/ 2 double sliders at the ends (and this was before insulation, windows and such). I bought a kit from a lumberyard down in PA and paid $400 to have it shipped up here, all for under 8k. Best $22k I ever saved. Maybe the difference is not so great for a bigger building, but around here it's like $30k just for the trouble of coming out /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Some of those small PA crews sould come up here and set up shop. They'd make a killing. More competition is always a good thing /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

cowboydoc · Mar 4, 2003

Yea for the ease of how these things go up I can't believe there aren't more people putting them up for less money. Pretty much around here they take whatever the materials are and double it. Then they add on for windows, doors, etc. Do the math these guys are making alot of money. My one friends had one put up the same time as mine two years ago. They had theirs built and it cost them as much for a 40x70 to have built as it cost me to build mine which was 86x120 with a finished 15x36 office and tack room and 10 stalls. I also poured concrete in my office and a big area to work on horses and machinery. I still was less than what theirs was built.

Soundguy · Mar 4, 2003

If you are sinking wood pylons.. I doubt you will have trouble with them lifting. The whole ide behind afriction pile is that it will greatly resist an upwards force when there is also a horizontal force aplied to it.. such as in the case of high winds, etc.

I do like the idea of securing the roofing members with hangers and drilling through for bolts, etc to tie everything together. Last big windstorm we had, neighbors entire metal roof on his pole barn flew off like a kite.....mine didn't move an inch...He didn't use any strapping/etc.

Soundguy