possible well pump problems?

[TheGoose]

If you can eliminate both your pump and well then the problem must lie down-stream. I'm just gonna ignore the geothermal aspect of it because when it's all said and done the geothermal system is just a water user and I don't think we should treat it any different than any other water usage appliance or fixture. It's possible that your bladder tank could still be bad even though it shows air pressure. Are you sure you evacuated all the water/pressure out of the system before checking the pressure? Sometimes it's possible to get a pin-hole leak and it will leak very slowly in/out and make it difficult to diagnose.

I would again bleed all the pressure out of the tank/lines and then I would manually bleed all of the pressure out of the bladder tank until it was empty of both water and air. Next I would re-pressure the bladder tank. Leave the water off for a while, perhaps several hours. Check the pressure of the bladder tank again. If it has dropped by 2-3 psi then you have a hole in your bladder. If the tank checks good then it really becomes a mystery. Perhaps a blocked line? Perhaps a hidden valve that got mysteriously pinched? Debris partially plugging the line?

Good luck and post up what you find.

 

[TheGoose]

Oh, and if your tank is bad get with me because you might possibly want to NOT get a bigger tank. I know that sounds illogical but I can explain if need be. The main thing that matters is that you keep your pump running while you are using water, be it geothermal or household use. There are several ways to do this and you can still get by with a small tank.

PS....a submersible doesn't have a footvalve. It has a check-valve, but when the pump is running it doesn't matter if the check valve is good or bad.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

Hello Merrickvileguy,
First off, the way the water is surging tells me that there may be something wrong with either your pump or tank. This is what I would do.

First, pull the cover off of the pressure switch and observe the contacts. Run the water until the contacts shut, which will turn on the well pump. Make sure that the contacts are staying shut and not opening/closing rapidly. If this is the case then you have a restriction in the 1/4" line going to the switch. Be careful, the points are energized and 230V can KILL!!

Ya the pump stays off when it hits 50psi. The pulsating I noticed was a one time thing. We don't see any rapid cycling, if I drain the pressure below 30, it stays on consistently until 50psi (maybe a minute to get that far) and shuts off and remains off.

You can easily test if your pump is good if you can find a way to easily block in the incoming flow with a valve and install a gauge on the pump side. I would try to run the pump and then slowly block in the gauge until you are almost dead-headed. When you approach the dead-head pressure you should have well over 100 psi on your gauge. If you do block in the valve all the way be careful because a submersible pump can produce well over 100 psi and if there is a relief valve in the line you could pop it and it may not re-seat or you could damage your incoming line or plumbing. It is difficult to know these things without being there myself. I am unfamiliar with local standards in Canada so you must take these thoughts into consideration.

The pipe coming from the pump to the house is underground, but I could separate the pipe in the house and do it there. Will have to pick something up, but do prefer to not burst my pipes =)

If your pump will pressure up then we can eliminate that as the problem. Next I would try to find out if the incoming line will pump steady flow. This could tell us if your well is producing enough water to keep up with the pump. I realize that being in the basement it may be a little difficult to do this but I really don't know how it could be done. Perhaps there is a way to send a line outside to let the open discharge line flow outside or run a hose outside? Using the pressure valve we installed I would start out with a low flow, say 2-3 GPM and then open the valve up until your water starts either pulsating or stops/starts completely. If it either pulsates or starts/stops then you have a problem with your production.

If I was having production problems at the well, (i.e. emptying it and drawing air), I would think with having the pump running for hrs to feed the geothermal it would show cavitation or silt in the water? (The geo just dumps the water into a second well). The pressure even after hrs of running the pressure seems to sit in the 20's (25ish) and I can still hit about 5gpm off my hose.

If you can eliminate both your pump and well then the problem must lie down-stream. I'm just gonna ignore the geothermal aspect of it because when it's all said and done the geothermal system is just a water user and I don't think we should treat it any different than any other water usage appliance or fixture. It's possible that your bladder tank could still be bad even though it shows air pressure. Are you sure you evacuated all the water/pressure out of the system before checking the pressure? Sometimes it's possible to get a pin-hole leak and it will leak very slowly in/out and make it difficult to diagnose.

When I tested I set the valve to the rest of the house (after the tank) closed, then opened the hose into my sump pit (conveniently adjacent) and left it open until no water came out. I lifted the tank and it felt light. The pressure at the air valve read 28. I can't preclude the possibility that there was water over the bladder but it wasn't completely full as no water came out.

I would again bleed all the pressure out of the tank/lines and then I would manually bleed all of the pressure out of the bladder tank until it was empty of both water and air. Next I would re-pressure the bladder tank. Leave the water off for a while, perhaps several hours. Check the pressure of the bladder tank again. If it has dropped by 2-3 psi then you have a hole in your bladder. If the tank checks good then it really becomes a mystery. Perhaps a blocked line? Perhaps a hidden valve that got mysteriously pinched? Debris partially plugging the line?

I'll give this a shot this afternoon.

Oh, and if your tank is bad get with me because you might possibly want to NOT get a bigger tank. I know that sounds illogical but I can explain if need be. The main thing that matters is that you keep your pump running while you are using water, be it geothermal or household use. There are several ways to do this and you can still get by with a small tank.

PS....a submersible doesn't have a footvalve. It has a check-valve, but when the pump is running it doesn't matter if the check valve is good or bad.

Ya, with the amount of gpm and time the geothermal uses, the tank would have to hold a few hundred gallons of water to meet its needs, for the rest of the stuff in the house we use low flow (toilets, faucets, showerheads) anyways, worst users are the dishwasher and clothes washer.

The big tell here is that it was a sudden problem and not chronic, and it happened around the time the water valve was stuck open (causing our water pump to run continuously for about a week or so without rest)

 

[Egon]

I turned the pump back on, filled the tank back up, turned the hose back on and let it run, it slowly dropped the pressure to 30psi, then made its way down to 20psi with the pump running, water flow was steady and not sputtering. Turning the hose off quickly raised the pressure in the tank back to 50psi./QUOTE]



I'm surely getting confused here but that is a normal state for me.

The systems pressures up, doesn't cycle frequently and is meeting household demands.

What should be fixed?

Set the high pressure cut-off to 60 psi. and inflate the tank bladder to the proper pressure. If all works then ?

In a water well a foot valve is usually at the bottom of the tubing string. So if a check valve is placed on the bottom of the string is it now a foot valve?

 

[merrickvilleguy]

well the thing is as an example ... before the change, I was able to have a shower (2.5gpm head) while the furnace is running. Now I can't.

When the furnace is off, I can shower, use sinks (0.5gpm) etc just fine with very little noticeable change in pressure.

The only thing I can think of is that if this problem has been ongoing, that the valve in the furnace was restricting the flow to the furnace to the point there was enough water for everything else?

 

[milkman636]

Is there a flow regulating valve at the heat pump that was adjusted as part of your recent heat pump service?

 

[merrickvilleguy]

It was replaced altogether. Thats what got me thinking initially that it was the heat pump was just applying too much load to the system. But, to rule out other problems I took a look at what the system was giving without the pump in use, which led me to see the 5gpm and 25ish psi.

To be honest, I have no idea what the pressure is supposed to be like (namely because I don't know how big my pump is), I mean if it is a 1/2hp pump instead of a 3/4hp that might only give me 5gpm ?

Rob

 

[milkman636]

What is the pipe size between the pump and the tank?

 

[Egon]

Now I can see a little light.

Rob it sounds like a decision will have to be made. Check the furnace for proper water usage, pull the pump for inspection or do both.

 

[merrickvilleguy]

What is the pipe size between the pump and the tank?

I'm working off memory here but I think it's 1 1/4" OD