pouring concrete in pole building

[Junkman]

Don't know where you got the idea that the drill bits are only six inches long. I have bits that are 18" long and I have bit extensions that will extend that by an additional 12, 18 or 24 inches if necessary. I think that I could drill into the next county if I wanted to buy the extensions.
I wouldn't even consider the expansion type of anchors because the anchoring cement doesn't ever loosen once it sets. They use this stuff to hold down million dollar machinery at Pratt and Whitney in Hartford Connecticut. They don't use expansion bolts, because they can and will loosen with time. Times change, technology changes, but people are slow to change. We have to learn to give up old ideas and start to use the new and forget what used to be the norm 10 years ago. The cement is the way of today and until something better comes along, it will be the way of tomorrow.

 

[Lazy]

Hi
you can also rent the core drill and drill deeper and faster than with a hammer drill. I would use the core drill and drill a hole at an angle and use at least a 1-1/2 inch pipe 18-24 inches deep. and if that didn't work and the building blew over next time I would rent a post hole digger that would drill thru rock and set the post deeper.

Charlie.

 

[CTyler]

I've never needed anything very long but I have seen 12" bits. How long to do need? Do a search on Google or where ever for what you need.

 

[bebster]

First, I think Junkman is in the running for your guardian angel on this project!
It's hard to tell without seeing a picture of the contour of your rock, but one possibility is get the barn all sheathed, so that the poles are better supported structurally, and then support one post at time, and jackhammer out concrete under that one post to get down to the rock.

Then drill from there, anchor in your threaded rod, and then come up on the side of the post and fasten the threaded rod to an L bracket. I'd use a Simpson Strong-Tie HD6A, which is readily available from lumber yards (maybe they'll have to order it for you). I've attached a drawing of one these that shows it's dimensions.

When you've completed anchoring it, you can then refill under it with concrete again. I guess you could try to drill through the concrete, but then you'd have to get the adhesive down through that hole in the concrete and into the rock. Maybe that's possible depending on the thickness and size of pilot hole you drilled in the concrete, and the type of adhesive. If so, it would save a step, but you want to get it right this time for sure.

 

[bebster]

Here's a link to the Simpson Site that shows the bracket I'm using. I'm sure it will work for you. Simpson HD6A

 

[mopower440]

heres where im at, i went down to the rental yard to look at the anchors they were talking about, they are 6" long and threaded at the top, the top has this pin sticking out of it, you drill the hole, knock the anchor down in the hole with the threads sticking out of the hole and then you hit that pin thats sticking out of the top, this expands the bottom part of the anchor and wedges itself in the rock/concrete, then when you tighten the not and it tries to pull out of the hole, it just gets tighter, 2 problems here though, first, can i get a bit longer than 6" and second, i cant find these wedge anchors any longer than 6", reason i need them longer and the bit longer is because when i first dug for the poles and hit this rock, the rock wasnt level, so i poured cement over the rock to level the spot up that the post was going to sit on, so in some spots, i will have to drill through several inches of concrete before i hit rock, and the anchors need to be in the rock, not in the concrete poured on top of it.i dont think it will be a problem on some of them, but there are a few that have a lot of concrete on them..any ideas here?

 

[Junkman]

First, allow me to tell you that it is easier to drill through concrete than it is to drill through rock. It is also easier to drill with a solid drill bit than it is to use a core bit. I own and have used both and I have extensive experience with both. Whenever I have a choice, I always use the drill bit rather than the core bit. The core bit is always slower, harder on the tool, and harder on the operator. It doesn't take a genius to understand the mechanics of operation to understand why. One is cutting a circle and the other is cutting a hole. The pictured tool will work for your application and will drill 10" deep. If you need more than 10", then you will have to find a place that has longer drills. If the rental yards don't have them, then start calling construction companies and see if one of them will rent you the tool that you need. I once rented a hammer drill that darn near needed two people to operate to take down a concrete block wall. The electric hammer drill was more than 4 feet long!! You need to start thinking positively, not negatively. You need to start thinking how you can get this done. Time is becoming your enemy, not your friend. We can only help you so far, the rest is up to you. Don't stumble now.
Once again, forget the anchors that they are trying to sell you. Go to an industrial supply house and buy some commercial grade threaded rod stock. It comes in 3 or 4 foot lengths. Also buy the nuts and washers. Do NOT buy stainless steel. I won't get into the reasoning, but trust me, you don't want stainless steel!! Grade 5 or grade 8 threaded rod is what you want. Grade 8 is preferable. NOT hardware store threaded rod... Industrial Supply Store..... Do I make myself clear?????

 

[mopower440]

clear as a bell..lol.. ok, tell me, what size threaded rod do i need and would lowes or Home depot have this threaded rod?
next, what size hole do i drill, do i drill the hole the same size as the rod, then force the rod in or what?
Next, how do i go about getting the anchoring cement in the hole? do i just pour it on the rod, then stick the rod in the hole or what? last, how long before i can tighten the nut down from the 'L' bracket to the rod?
let me know this stuff and i will go looking for the stuff, hopefully lowes will have the anchoring cement.

 

[Junkman]

Mopower....... If I was a teacher and you were a student, I would ask to speak to your parents! I told you where to get the rod. I told you the grade of rod to use and the technical term for that grade. I told you not to use hardware store quality rod. Lowe's, Home Depot, etc., are glorified hardware stores, not industrial supply houses. Do you know what an industrial supply house is? It is a supply house that supplies hardware to industry that needs quality fasteners. They are located in all industrial centers around the country. Wherever you find manufacturing companies, you will find industrial suppliers. If you can't find an industrial supplier, come back to the forum and we will locate one for you. You will have to disclose the city and state where you are located for us to do this. I told you how to size the rod. I told you the cement to get. I gave you the telephone number of the people to ask the questions of that make the cement and the times that they are there, so you could learn how to use the cement. I told you how long you have to wait till the cement hardens before you can tighten the nuts on the threaded rod. I didn't tell you that Lowe's will have the cement, but I am sure that they will. I assumed that you could figure that out on your own. I got mine at Home Depot. I don't believe that I can be of any additional assistance to you. I believe that it is time that I give you a D and send you onto the next grade. I hope that your next teacher has as much patience with you as I have had. Good luck with your studies. I have gone to Florida to enjoy learning golf in my retirement. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[SPIKER]

HI MOPO:

FIRST get you're angles made up. 12+" long 4"x4"x1/4" ANGLE IRON. you can buy this for a few bucks just about any scrap steel or new steel place, DON'T go to local lumber yard expecting to find it. look in phone book for local steel fabricators sales place. see if they will punch holes in them for you to drill & mount the posts with. I would punch 3 for anchoring to the rock of 3/4" dia in one side middel and an inch from each end. then 3 smaller holes 1/2" for mounting the posts to near the top edge of the angle, 13/4" in one dead center and one each side about 4" APPART that way you can use the two outside holes or one and the middle or all three depending as the need. I'd PAINT them with some metal paint of some type too at this point just because I'm finickly...

THEN on to the rod

The threaded rod that is at the local farm store is grade 2~3 or at best grade 5. the grade 5 would be OK as long as you get it in a 5/8" or 3/4" and then drill a 3/4" or a 7/8" hole respectively for the epoxy needs room in the hole with the rod. Grade 8 would be better as it resists rust much better.

THEN Get you're posts exposed first, (leave the concrete alone at the bottom but make sure the dirt is away from the post far enough to get the angles in the ground level as possable.. CLAMP and mount the angles to the POSTS FIRST using Stainless Steel LAGS (see NEW TREATMENTS FOR WOOD) as the new3 stuff will EAT STEEL FASTNERS.) Get the ANGLES down as close on the ROCK/CONCRETE and tighten down the LAGS into the posts, (I'd suggest at least 3/8" SS lags by 2.5" or 3". also get a air blow gun (there MAY be a BULB BLOWER) with the hammer drill (in the drill box) and after the holes are drilled and the dust removed blow out the hole so there is little or no DUST left down in the holes in the ROCK. DRILL THROUGH the holes in the ANGLES and use the HOLE that you drilled to measure each hunk of ROD that you will cut off. by using the hole as a guide MARK the lenght of the hole + enough to get the angle and nuts on top and cut the threaded rod using a cutoff saw grinder, sawsall or hack saw. EACH ROD may be a different lenght. MARK CUT and CHANPHER the NUT end of each rod and hole before thinking about the epoxy stuff. after all the holes are drilled cleaned the angles are mounted to the posts and nuts and washers are on ONE END of the RODS.

THEN mix the epoxy (enough to do one or two posts at a time, and fill the hole about 1/2 way up and apply the epoxy to the threaded rod so that the threads (the under ground part is covered) and push the rods all the way down in the hole epoxy should squeeze/squish out of the hole mix it up/down 5 or 6 times so the epoxy gets coated in the holes good. THEN let the rod settle all the way to the bottom of the holes and the epoxy should run out a bit under the angles.


continue on untill you are all done with all the posts that are burried less than 2' deep to the bottom of the posts. leave the nuts loose and don't burry the posts yet. after a day or two of cure time you need to SHIM the ANGLES with small rocks or GROUT and then tighten the nuts down good. Then you can re-burry the posts with back fill or pour some more concrete over the angles and posts to grade. though most people agree that the posts SHOULD NOT be encased in concrete as this can cause a ROTTing like condition just below the concrete line. NOT 100% sure on this though.

anyhow that is how I woudl do it. there are several DRIVE in types of anchors. but ROCK may not hold with them as well as the epoxy does now.... something about the quality of the rock too. sandstone will not hold up with the drive in types very well at all while granit wouldn't be able to get them out! same for the eposy stuff now though too.

undouptable the epoxy way is easier as the hole that you drill is bigger than the threaded rod and thaat means easy slip type fits... more room for a bit of error (incase a hole is miss drilled a bit ect...)

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif