Power Beyond from in series plumbing a loader valve on 3810 etc.

[Car Doc]

Rather than hijack California's thread where this topic was being discussed I figured I would start a new one. I have been talking about doing this since I first studied the plumbing and thought there is no way this can work properly 3 years ago.

My loader was working about so-so is the best I can describe it and the curl is non existent most of the time its just pitiful. Kenmac sent me pics last year of how he plumbed his and that helped me he gave me a real decent explanation along with the pictorial so thanks Kenmac!

I would add I don't have any real experience with the setup now other than I went a got a bucket of rock and went down the driveway and spread it thin. I noticed now I can shake the bucket to empty it I couldn't do that before also my regen detent on the curl works that never worked before either so it seems to be better already but time will tell. :thumbsup:

Oh and I used QC fittings because my loader is a QA and I made a hose to jump the pressure line when loader is off so that's out of the way in case I ever need to use it w/o the loader on.

I will simply post the pics I went and captioned them so hopefully its self explanatory. Oh well shoot the captions didn't get transferred sorry maybe I will manually do it somehow dang it anyway.




Ok from top left to bottom right-1)PB sleeve and closed center plug. Dont use plug in PB routing. 2)Final return to sump on trany. 3) Final plumbing set up. 4) Return at back of valve w/90. 5) Plate being cleaned up after plasma cut. 6) Marking plate on 1/4 steel. 7) Notice the return is plugged! A mistake I wont be doing again I hope. 8) Some new parts. 9) Lines bent back close to where I needed them. 10) Old plumbing in series. 11) Old OE inspection plate on trany. 12) Final QC fittings installation in pressure line from diverter valve to 3 pt.

 

[winston1]

Nice job, I notice you have quick disconnects on your pressure line coming off the pump. JJ warns if those should happen to come loose we stand the possibility of pump damage. I have been runnning mine like that for a long time but I am going to change it. I have fittings and a hose ordered to go to the power beyond. When it all comes in I am going to post it. Thanks for sharing your conversion.

 

[Scotty Dive]

Could I ask for someone to draw a flow diagram including loader, pump and 3 point? Please?

 

[kenmac]

Could I ask for someone to draw a flow diagram including loader, pump and 3 point? Please?

If you don't have the same loader valve your's maybe different plumbing.I could probably tell you better than I can draw it. This is a description of how mine & car docs is plumbed.

High pressure from pump (small line) route this line to inlet to feed loader valve. (Should have a P on loader valve for pressure.) T on loader valve is the return to tank line. Next will be the PB from loader valve connects to small line to 3 pt. That's it

 

[JCByrd24]

I'll throw out that another option, my loader valve stays on the tractor, qdcs are on the loader work ports. Gives you the option of using valve for other functions and eliminates the pesky qdc on the unprotected pressure line.

 

[winston1]

I'll throw out that another option, my loader valve stays on the tractor, qdcs are on the loader work ports. Gives you the option of using valve for other functions and eliminates the pesky qdc on the unprotected pressure line.

That is how I am hoping to plumb mine when I get my fittings.

 

[kenmac]

Car doc. Glad to see you got it completed. I think you'll like it !:thumbsup: I hope the 1/2'' return line works out ok for you . 1st time, I used all 1/2'' fittings / pipe and still didn't have enough flow back to tank.Mine now works very well with the 3/4 fittings and pipe

 

[Car Doc]

Thanks guys for all the tips and comments as always and thanks again to Kenmac for taking the time and effort to help! :thumbsup:

Winston since I mentioned this to you the other day this made me think of that- I re-tested my relief that's in the diverter block (where the P/S gets feed) when I mis routed the lines the first time and had the closed center plug in the tank outlet on the loader valve (see pic).

I can tell you if the pressure line comes off because the QC unlatches it will bypass its not a perfect situation but it will and give me time to deal with it. Having the QC may only be used once in a blue moon and cost me extra now but I try to engineer with expansion in mind good or bad that's just me. This cost me right at $200 but will be worth every bit of it if it makes the loader work right.

I also think I am going to retest all my relief settings the loader valve seems to be bypassing now at least I think that's what I am hearing? The whole hydraulic system has a different sound is what I noticed right away its subtle but its there. I am stuck inside with no real tractor work I can do its too cold but here soon I have a lot of stuff I need to do. So will get a chance to work it and see how it performs I am stoked to maybe have a loader I wont have to wait on for every move especially curl to dump!

(the power down is real fast least it sure seems fast so I may re-time all the movements like we did on that other thread when I get more time)

 

[Car Doc]

I'll throw out that another option, my loader valve stays on the tractor, qdcs are on the loader work ports. Gives you the option of using valve for other functions and eliminates the pesky qdc on the unprotected pressure line.

I like your idea! I don't know if I personally need it or not but that would save me money on another joystick should I ever need it in the future. Mounting the stick on a bracket that stayed with the tractor would be very simple that's good thinking thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[Car Doc]

Car doc. Glad to see you got it completed. I think you'll like it !:thumbsup: I hope the 1/2'' return line works out ok for you . 1st time, I used all 1/2'' fittings / pipe and still didn't have enough flow back to tank.Mine now works very well with the 3/4 fittings and pipe

I know you are right on with that advice looking at the fittings I will probably see the day I do just that. These fittings are about 3/8 inside the fact it seems better is probably because there is less restriction now than thru the 3pt plumbing dumping straight into the sump now.

I can switch over to 3/4 pretty easy a lot easier than the change to where I am at now anyway if/when the need arises.

 

[chriswheeler]

Nice job Car Doc.
Couple of related things I learned the hard way. First, find a set of split collars to fit over the body of your quick connects. They are cheap and act as a lock, no matter what you do they won't disconnect without you lostening the allen locking screws first, could save you a pump. Also, a related story. Looks like you have the same Koyker loader I had on my YM 3000. ( a 160 ) I always thought it moved rather slow when I got the tractor. After one of my quick disconnects uncoupled when going through brush, I found myself in need of a new hyd pump somehow. As a short term fix I transfered the hyd pump from my JD950 to the Yanmar 3000. The 950 has the same block and pump drive, and fittings as the YM3000, it is a bolt on replacement. All of a sudden my loader would move twice as fast and had all the speed I could ever ask for. Talking to Hoye Tractor on the phone, it seams Yanmar had 2 pumps for these tractors. They look the same, but the high output pump is intended for a tractor with a loader, Hoye sells both for the same price, a little under $400. The following spring, I installed the Hoye high cap pump and the loader moved as well or faster than it had with the pump off the JD 950. I'm just guessing here, but most of the Gray Market Yanmars that came here, came here without a loader, the loader was installed on the tractor at the dealer without a pump change to the high cap pump. Sure it worked, but it took 6 seconds to lift a load. Think Hoye's high cap pump is a cheap investment for someone with a loader. What part # is the high cap and what is the standard ?? Don't know, but I'm sure Hoye does, might be worth a call,
Chris

 

[Car Doc]

Thanks Chris for that info! :thumbsup: I will certainly keep that in mind all of it that is the kind of help we all benefit from and is imo the reason this Yanmar forum exists!

If I realize my loader is slow this summer I will run a 3/4 return from the loader valve first and if I still don't like it I will most likely get a HV pump from Hoye. I may call ahead of time and see about the pump part numbers and what I have installed now. I know my numbers are all but impossible to see now because I looked recently to find them and was not able to find them they must be on the off side?

 

[chriswheeler]

Had I used the cheap split lock collars to begin with, I'd never would have had "dead headed" the hyd pump to begin with. ( about $2 ea ) Pump did shear the key, also trashed the drive shaft. Didn't matter what the stock #was at the time, old pump drive shaft was trashed. Didn't have to change any line sizes to get the higher flow, what was plumbed into the system looked to be around 3/8" lines ( metric ) Good luck with yours, my YM3000 sold last summer for almost twice what I paid 8 years ago. Thinking my JD 950 will go this spring as well, get down to one tractor.
Chris

 

[Car Doc]

Yup you reiterated a point I made to someone earlier about shear keys that is my experience also it hammers everything. (a lawn mower flywheel key is aluminum different animal) I will get lock collars for sure and fwtw I accidentally dead headed the small line out of the diverter a couple days ago and it bypassed just fine thru the diverter block relief long enough for me to walk around the tractor and work the stick and realize I had it plumbed wrong yikes!

edit: On closer examination it had to find a path to tank thru the loader valve somehow because of how I had it plumbed for this reason- it wont bypass with the small line plugged, I had the return in place just not on the return port on loader valve.

Of course I don't know if a 3000 is different or not there my p/s is fed out of it also fwtw? However my mistake it showed me a couple leaks I was unaware of in my welding and went and fixed before it was completely assembled. :laughing:

edit: I have auxiliary hydraulics already on this tractor from the factory or added over in Japan its in the 3pt block and it had a hose running out and back in a loop. I extended them out behind the fender to a manifold to power my splitter. I have always wondered about the bigger pump now I think about it I have heard about it before now. I also wondered if that is why my loader sucks so bad is because of what ever they did to the 3pt block I will never know most likely?

edit: Oh and if I get the loader working to suit me it would be pretty hard to get this tractor away from me but...I would sure consider double my money haha :thumbsup: I am glad you doubled your money these are handy tractors no doubt worth double the money to most.

 

[chriswheeler]

Double the money and still had 7-8 years of use. Must confess though, Sacramento Tractor ( out of business now ) gave me a **** of a deal to begin with. My 3000 was a more basic unit than yours, no power steering to begin with. I suspect that you have the same pump problem though. Most of these were set up to run a tiller in rice, no need for any extra flow from the pump. I also suspect that your main valve body is diffrent, but it shouldn't be restricting the flow of the pump any at all. Your 3810 is many years newer than my 1977 YM3000 and their are bound to be differences. Intresting to note that the bolt up pattern, gasket and drive on my 1985 JD 950 is exactly the same as the 1977 3000 and I expect yours as well.
Chris

 

[kenmac]

Chris, While I have no idea which hyd. pump I have or, how to tell the difference in a high flow pump vs the 1 on my tractor.I can tell you that, after I added a hyd. return line to the tank.My loader operates faster/better than when it was plumbed in series with the 3 pt.If car doc's loader works as well as mine .I think he'll be happy.I know I am

 

[Car Doc]

For grins I timed my loader like we did in that other thread on the Kubota vs Yanmar my times were then-27 sec @ 1k rpm from floor to top stoke and power down to floor, 20 seconds @ 1500 rpm, I didn't even attempt curl it would have been a joke that and I had my pallet forks on and didn't want them flapping all over bending things.

now its 22 sec @ 1k rpm floor to top and power down to floor, 12 sec @ 1500 rpm, and 20 sec to go from floor to top and curl bucket bth ways stop to stop (yea it works! ) and then down to floor. 20 seconds is considerably faster and is doing a lot more movement no way I could count on the curl to even work before! :thumbsup:

I still need to check my loader valve relief pressure setting because on regen detent curl I can hear the loader valve relieving pressure least I think that's what I hear so I may pick up speed if its set to low I can only speculate now?

I am appreciative of the JD interchange info that is great to know I can get at least those parts from big green.

 

[chriswheeler]

Had to reset mine as well after the pump change. On that Koyker joy stick it was on the bottom of the valve with a cover over the screw. Used the tractor as a gage, set the valve to releave just a little more that lifting the front end of the tractor. Still, at that setting, the loader would unload heavy stuff from a trailer over 1000 lbs with the front end of the tractor blocked up. Saw no need for more,
Chris

 

[Car Doc]

Got to use my loader a bit today we had 4-5 inchs of wet snow and more on the way. I usually drag the snow off my approach from the highway so it doesn't get so icy and back drag my driveway to knock the snow down it melts better easier to drive on etc. Anyway still not real happy with my loader its better by quite a bit but if I was to buy a tractor for the loader I wouldn't be buying this one fwtw.

Now what I do next if anything is the question live with it or not hummm.

I checked my pressure the other day and its 2250 right where I set it last year so nothing has changed there. However I noticed it takes a bit to max out the relief at the 2250 mark so I am thinking my pump must be getting weak or bypassing when it shouldn't be what do you guys think new pump or what am I missing?


edit: I will change my return to 3/4 before I do anything else. I should have mentioned that and besides Kenmac has told me a couple times he wasn't happy with 1/2 return line so I will do that first and report. I drug off another 10-12" of snow this AM from my drive and the neighbors and the loader is a lot better than it used to be no doubt especially running the engine @ 2000+. I am hearing what I swear is fluid bypassing when I use the stick that has me scratching my head is it the extra line on the PB running to the 3 pt I am hearing just dont know yet maybe a partially stuck open bypass in the diverter block???
I could swear last year when I did my splitter conversion my pressure would bump the gage to the relief setting right now.

 

[chriswheeler]

You have lots of extra stuff going on your 3810 that I didn't have on my basic 3000. All I had going was the 3point and the Koyker 160 loader. All I can say for sure is that after the pump change to high output, speed of both was more than doubled. Also a possibility that my old pump was tired before the quick connect uncoupled, dead heading the pump, and finishing it off. Pressure is one thing, volume is another. The replacement pump from Hoye was quite a bit thicker than what I took off, thinner than the JD950 pump that I ran as a short term fix. Could be all 3 pumps had a different volume output. For under $400 it would sure be worth a try. 3810 is a nice rig, they had one at the dealer when I was buying priced at around $10K with the loader. My 3000 went out the door at $4K. Had I spent the extra $$$, would most likely still have it.
Chris