Power Beyond Option Questions

   / Power Beyond Option Questions #21  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( "An adapting sleeve which opens a passage from one circuit to another. Often installed in a valve port which is normally plugged."

This sounds pretty generic to me.

Jeff )</font>

Actually that sounds particular to a given valve design.
Configurable valves exist where three different output
plug/sleeve options are available which will set the valve
type to one of either open-center, closed-center, or
(open-center) power beyond.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #22  
jrlichina:

<font color="blue">Please feel free to check out any text books on fluid power to see for yourself.</font>

At your suggestion, I pulled out my copy of Fluid Power Design Handbook, 2nd Revised Ed. publ Marel Deddker, Inc 1990 and checked the index for "power beyond". No listing. I am in no way suggesting that a generic term power beyond is not used. My objection was of the tractor brands I seriously considered the only one that touted it as a special feature was JD. You are an expert in the field and would, therefore, be well aware of its generic meaning. A novice might very well not be.

JerryG: Agco was not one of the brands I carefully studied before tractor purchase, therefore, I was not aware that they touted the term as a special feature the way JD does As I said in my post, "so far as I am aware."

RobS (& JohnMiller3): You may be very well aware that "power beyond" does not increase power. I will repeat what I said above, I have seen posts on this site where individuals (obviously, not as knowledgable as yourselves) did not and thought it meant more power rather than where it is delivered.

Someone?? who used the plugging in of an extension cord - good analogy.

Sorry, didn't mean to create a stir. But of the 5 tractor brands I seriously considered (none an an Agco brand) the only one who touted it as a "special feature" was JD. Why don't you folks suggest to yooperdave whether he should buy his remotes, etc. with the tractor or add them later. Any suggestions to his question?

JEH
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #23  
If you guys reread yooperdave's original post & subsequent post I believe there was some confusion about terms and he was just trying to understand.

I note, without comment, that there was no objection to my effort to describe in simple terms what the physical reality was. The only reason I posted was that a prievious response, although very accurate technically, did not seem as simple (i.e. easily graspable) as it might be.

All my life I have disliked fakery and pretense. A company that toutes a generic feature (I guess available on all tractors) as some special thing is certainly engaging in "hype".

Have we answered yooperdave's questions? (after all, this is his thread).

JEH
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #24  
GR,
I agree that sometimes advertising can lead people to believe things like you mention. Especially me, who has little knowledge of many things. That's why it's nice to have a place like this to ask questions.

As for adding things after a purchase, it seems from what I've read here that most things are cheaper if you buy them all at the time of the initial tractor purchase. I don't know why this is, but it is for most tractor brands that I've looked at. There were some posts about adding FELs later and the prices were WAY more than if they were purchased with the tractor. I'd get as many bells and whistles added at the original tractor purchase as I could afford.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #25  
You didn't say what size tractor you were looking for - but - just offhand I'd say get all the buttons & bells & whistles & plumbing you can possibly afford and the size of the machine can handle. What I really wanted was a TC45D with a clutch instead of hydro - but I couldn't get it that way - with dual rear hyd and a quick tach bucket and a grapple ....... $$$$$ unfortunately does count in the equation...
The thing is - the more capability you put on it at the initial buy - the more you'll be able to do with it after and you'll have more flexibility(ms?) with whatever attachments you want to hook to it. To add additional capability afterwards will at least cost more - if you're able to add it at all.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #26  
grimreaper,

<font color="blue">JerryG: Agco was not one of the brands I carefully studied before tractor purchase, therefore, I was not aware that they touted the term as a special feature the way JD does As I said in my post, "so far as I am aware."</font>

I'm sorry that it may have sounded that way. As far as I know AGCO doesn't tout it as a special feature. It is only used to describe how the circuits are set up and what the parts are call in their manuals.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #27  
Moss- guess I shoulda typed faster - /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #28  
<font color="blue"> As for adding things after a purchase, it seems from what I've read here that most things are cheaper if you buy them all at the time of the initial tractor purchase. I don't know why this is, </font>
It could be the dealer gets an incentive from the factory when they sell additional options/implements at the time of purchase.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #29  
All right guys,

Now that someone has gotten your attention, if you had Power Beyond (which I do) how would add in additional valves etc for remotes such as, Top n Tilt, line for a dump feature on a small trailer etc.


Jon
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #30  
JEH, fluid hydraulics are about like electrical wiring: There is one safe way to do things, and many other ways to make it work. There are so many different valves & ports & spools & combinations.

But it all starts with a real simple concept, so we all think we can master it. We end up with something that looks like it might be working, but probably really isn't right. Like in electricity, you can pretend the ground & common wires do the same thing & get by not using one - but if you ever actually would have needed the ground wire, you just hurt something or someone! With hyrdaulics, you can use the return line sometimes for a pressure port, but it wasn't meant for that.

You want to use a true power beyond port, which was designed to supply full hyd pressure to a hose. From that hose you need to add a valve(s) and plumbing to whatever the oil will operate. A power beyond port is more like a junction box on electricity - it offers you a place to connect into the system properly. You still need to add the outlet & cords from there...

Now, 'power beyond' is a truely generic term used in all of hydraulics by all companies. Perhaps JD used it a lot more, but it is wrong of you to 'blame' JD for using it. I think (and you asked) what people are looking for is you to say, "Whoops, I goofed, I didn't realize PB was a generic hydraulic term! Sorry." and leave it at that. I am not really a JD fan, & can find enough fault with them on many issues, but this issue has nothing to do with JD & I don't understand your defensiveness about it? There is an appearence you want to chuck rocks at JD, and for no good reason here - your error. I goof many times a day, oops, I'm sorry, and move on. It's easy. Don't be defensive.

As to hydraulics, it is best to order what you know you will use to begin with on the tractor. What if you don't know? If your budget allows it sure is nice to have at least _one_ set of hyd ports on the back of your tractor. It is cheaper to get this stuff at the time of purchase, but if you never use it, then it was a waste. But, one set of ports is a good idea if you are considering needing them.

Most tractors offer a spot for stackable spools (a valve with lever) for adding these ports. Pretty easy to do, custom and expensive stuff from the dealer.

Most tractors offer a power beyond port somewhere, from which you can add hose, a valve (or multiple stacking valves) with a lever, and run hose from the valve to wherever you want a set of ports (or several sets from your several valves). This may be a kit from your dealer, or it may be assembled from hyd suppliers & common parts. It is often cheaper (if you get good asvise on how to do it) to buy from a supplier. But it almost always 'looks' messier. Works just as well. You need to have everything working together - open or closed center, power beyond compatable, and so on when you get to buying valves & such. This is beyond my abilities to advise.

If you have a set of ports anywhere on your tractor, you can buy a gadget called a multiplier that will take the output from that hyd port & direct the output to several different hyd ports. This gives you multiple hyd ports form one set if that is all you have. It is just a bit less convienient than true multiple ports on your tractor, but not a big deal & cheaper most of the time.

If you have a loader on your tractor and the joystick/ levers stay with your tractor when you remove the loader, you can just connect to those ports for hyd power & use the loader control levers. The problem is that often we want to keep the loader on when we use something else hydaulic....

The 'Bobcat' quick attach style is becoming quite universal with many manufaturers, and is worth looking into as the way of attaching things to your loader. Probably give you the most common deal, altho there are reasons to go a different route. Depends on what you want to do down the road. But you sure want to strongly consider the Bobcat universal quick tach.

--->Paul
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #31  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With hyrdaulics, you can use the return line sometimes for a pressure port, but it wasn't meant for that.

--->Paul )</font>

Even if a valve would withstand such pressure in the tank
(return) port there is the functional issue in the valve
of the tank port being pressurized. A cylinder may not
be able to retract due to both ports being under pressure.
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #32  
rambler:

<font color="blue">Now, 'power beyond' is a truely generic term used in all of hydraulics by all companies. Perhaps JD used it a lot more, but it is wrong of you to 'blame' JD for using it. I think (and you asked) what people are looking for is you to say, "Whoops, I goofed, I didn't realize PB was a generic hydraulic term! Sorry." and leave it at that.</font>

The original point (and the only reason I posted in this thread at all) was to attempt a clearer explanation to yooperdave's original post, a post which indicated some confusion over so-called power beyond and remotes. Please reread his original post. The fact that "power beyond" is a generic term isn't really the point, is it? JD uses it in such a manner as to create confusion in the minds of some prospective customers. PLEASE NOTE: some JD owners discussing it in this thread have capitalized it. What does that tell you-proves the point, doesnt it!

<font color="blue">There is an appearence you want to chuck rocks at JD</font>

Indeed. Using a term, generic or otherwise, in such a manner as to mislead at least some of their prospective customers, yes. As far as their products, one of the tractors I seriously considered was the JD 990. Really nice, solid basic tractor made by Yanmar. Even had a metal fuel tank. Really liked it. Highly rated engine, etc. The reason I didn't buy it wasn't because of their hype, but the specs on the FEL & BH. Also, hydraulic flow was not as quite as good as NH ("Power Beyond" or "power beyond" nothwithstanding). Another reason I didn't buy the JD was their multi-lingual owners manual which I view as laziness on their part and disrespectful to their American customers/market. Yet, as stated above, you have to give them credit for their marketing ability. Even their designs make an effort to tie current models to look like older ones-compare, for example, their grills (the 990 for example) with JD models from the 1960s. Nice.

The purpose of language is to communicate from one brain to another. I wonder what percentage of potential buyers walking into JD showrooms would know that "Power Beyond" is really availability of access ports to divert hydraulic flow to external uses? You may know that. I may have discovered it in a few minutes asking what it was after it was touted as a special feature. But how many never asked and went away thinking JD was offering them something unique?

JEH
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #33  
In reading through this, I think part of the confusion here is that the same words are being used to mean different things.

Some people are refering to "power beyond" simply as the capability to add more hydraulic controls, taps, etc in addition to those already outfitted on a tractor. I think this is the meaning being attributed and associated with JD. This use does not imply HOW the additional devices are connected, simply whether or not it can be done.

The other use of "power beyond" is being used to describe a particular plumbing technique for adding additional controls, taps, etc. This plumbing technique has nothing unique to do with JD or any other manufacturer. It's like series versus parallel wiring in electricity.

I know only enough about hydraulics to be dangerous, but let me try to explain the two ways to set up multiple hydraulic controls in an open-center hydraulic system.

Basically, the controls get plumbed up in series so the fluid flows through each one in turn, ultimately dumping back into the tank. In the absence of PB, this series connection is the only plumbing involved, and each devices OUT port connect to the next IN port. This works, but with restrictions. The simplest way to look at it is that you can only use one device at a time for a few reasons. First, the first active device in the series will potentially reduce oil flow to subsequent devices making them inoperable. Second, the first device can be "blocked" from operating because a subsequent device is also activated and causing back pressure on the first. If you never use more than one control at a time, this will all work fine, but it does have restrictions. Several people on TNB have set up Topand Tilt controls this way and had no trouble using them (I think Bird did his this way).

The way to overcome the restrictions described is to provide a "drain" port for each individual control valve. I call it a "drain" because the fluid is never under pressure in these drain lines. This gets a bit confusing because this "drain" is called the OUT port, and the port that goes to the next valve is now called the "PB" port. With a separate "drain" for each valve, you never get backpressure from activated down-stream valves, and hence two controls can be operated at the same time. The only restriction is that the valves must share the available fluid flow from the pump so operating more than one at a time can slow each of them down.

I hope this helps rather than confusing things more.

Peter
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #34  
<font color="blue"> guess I shoulda typed faster </font>

Hee hee! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #36  
<font color="blue"> Hi Guys,now that we have PB what some of the things we can do with it ?</font>

Well Ken, in my case I hook my backhoe up to the PB, start moving those control levers around and all of a sudden every last bit of stress from the workday disappears. It's just like magic /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PB by itself is somewhat limited. Backhoes, log splitters and anything else that has it's own valving. Power Beyond, without some valves only supplies continuous hydraulic power /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #37  
People actually think "power beyond" is a marketing trick by JD and it leads sheep to think that they get more power "beyond" their normal flow?? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif LMAO...I honestly think that individual should hire all tractor work out....BTW any posts in the archives asking how much more "power" their "power beyond " kit adds??? Were are these misled souls hiding out and were are the posts? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif............. LOL.............
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #38  
Don't laugh so hard. There are plenty of things out there that don't make sense to folks unitl they are explained a different way. That's why people ask questions. This is the place to ask them. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Power Beyond Option Questions #39  
<font color="blue">that don't make sense to folks until they are explained a different way</font>

That's completely true. I'm sure that when the writer came up with that it made perfect sense. Hydraulic Power beyond the tractor frame used for implements that have their own valving/flow control. But when a person looking for a 30hp tractor reads it they see Power Beyond the 30 horses. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
 

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