Power Steering Problem Not Solved

[toddler]

I only have the 60"mmm, and I always lower it, but my wife occasionally forgets after mowing and it's stayed up for days before I've noticed and lowered it. Even if it did leak down, that wouldn't be the issue. With the engine running, the position control shouldn't let it leak down ever. I'm beginging to dislike your dealer Alan, and I've never even met him.
Todd

 

[Alan L.]

The funny thing is that I too have left the cutter up with the engine off and it did not leak down. The only time I notice it is while I'm actually using it. I have not detected any leakdown with the engine killed.

I like the owner of the dealership, but the service manager gets on my nerves. He told me today he has never heard of position control on the 3 ph. I think he knew what I was talking about.

I know Kubotas at my dealership must not be giving much trouble because of all the times I have been there, the only tractors I see in the shop are 10+ year old tractors and new ones they are setting up. I don't think I have seen new ones they are actually working on (except for mine).

Alan L., TX

 

[ronjhall]

<font color=blue>Does it always show up while using a rear-mounted implement (pto run or not)? </font color=blue>
I'm not sure. The last time I did a lot of work with a rear mounted implement was last summer. When the problem first showed up. I was using 5' disk and 7' rake.
<font color=blue>210 is HOT!</font color=blue>
<font color=orange> Kubota</font color=orange> Rep. says 210 degrees is not to hot.
<font color=blue>Do you run your belly mount all the way down (3 point at lowest position)?</font color=blue>
I set control between 4 & 5 for MMM.

 

[hayden]

Let me try to summarize where I think this is leading, 'cause I think we may be off in differnet directions.

The new "3PH theory" runs something like this:

- The 3PH has a leakdown problem

- When operating with a heavy implement, the position control is constantly compensating for the leakdown by pushing the implement back up. This is what the position control is supposed to do, except it's hyperactive due to the unusually leakdown.

- The hyperactive position control heats the oil more than "normal"

- Hot oil causes PS spazm.

Did I get this right? If so, here are a few observations.

- It still all comes back to hot oil causing the PS to spaz. Is 210 deg really too hot? The question here is whether the PS is still intollerant of hot, but in-range oil temps. How the oil gets hot is irrelevant provided it's still within acceptable range.

- I could see the hyperactive position control possibly interfering with steering in another way. Could 3PH movement (cause by the position control) starve the PS pump? Maybe the intake to the two pumps is inadequate, either by design or because there is a crimped line or other restriction. Could backpressure/workload on the 3PH hydraulic circuit interfere with the PS circuit? An interesting test would be to play with the PS while a heavy implement is actively being raised from ground level to full height. While raising the implement the 3PH is fully active for a second or two. If 3PH activity interferes, this should stimulate the problem. The more I think about this as I write, I think it's unlikely that there is a direct interference between 3PH lifting and PS or more people would see it.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Did I pick up somewhere that people who have switched to synthetic oil do not have this problem? Also, it seems like I picked up to somewhere that the position control may be set a little too sensitive from the factory. What I wonder is if the position control is continuously making adjustments to keep the implement within say a window of 1/2 inch instead of say one inch which would tax the hydraulics less. I wonder if the problem stems from cavitation. Synthetic oil would be less likely to cavitate.

The next time you're steering acts up I would lower my implement as far down as I could and then raise it as high as I could and then immediately shut down the tractor. Then bounce on the implement to see if there is any air trapped in the lift cylinder due to cavitation. Be careful here, do not get yourself squished. Also do this test when the tractor is operating normally so you have a reference for how springy the lift cylinder is under normal circumstances.

Please note that at this time I would go to the dealer and pick out the next largest size tractor and matter of factly tell them that the one you just picked out is the one that you want delivered back to your home. Then, just walk out in a snit before they can say anything. Maybe you will get lucky, you sure deserve it at this point.

 

[GlueGuy]

I presume you're talking about leakdown of the 3PH with position control while the engine is running?

When the engine is shut off, I would expect a "little" leakdown over a period of time. I did a leakdown test of my FEL and 3PH last night. The 3PH had Woods boxblade attached. I leveled the FEL at 36" off the floor, and pulled the 3PH as high as it would go; measured 23" at the rear blade to the floor.

This morning, the FEL is at 31" (leaked down 5"). I'd say that's probably "normal".

The 3PH was at 5" (leaked down 18"). This is probably "normal" too.

The GlueGuy

 

[Bird]

kubotadriver, I only detected the power steering problem twice with my B2710 (now with 302 hours on it) early in its first summer. And I did change to synthetic (Amsoil) at 218 hours, but cannot say whether or not that helped.

Bird

 

[Alan L.]

The Amsoil will be my last resort. I really want to get this problem verified by the dealer first, because I don't know whether the Amsoil will help or not and the summer might run out on me before we get it solved.

Its supposed to be about 100 today but I'm sitting here at my desk. This weekend its supposed to be cooler (96 for a high) so thats not really hot enough for complete steering failure that I can get them to witness. Where is that 100 degree weekend weather when you need it?

Alan L., TX

 

[ronjhall]

Alan
<font color=orange> Kubota</font color=orange> Rep. is a no show this week to look at my power steering problem./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif He's in the hospital on sick leave. Hope this power steering stuff hasn't had anything to do with it. Hope he gets better soon and another Rep. is available.

If it takes Amsoil to fix the problem then <font color=orange>Kubota</font color=orange> better plan on giving me a life time supply./w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

I like kubotadriver's idea of selecting a new tractor as I'm leaving the dealer. I'll have to select another 2910 because a bigger tractor just would not fit in my place. If it had a Back Hoe, that could be an incentive to let them have the old tractor back./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I don't think my problems are dealer related. Just a need for <font color=orange>Kubota </font color=orange>to admit they have a problem and repair it./w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I am experiencing the same problem. I have answered kubmech's "questionaire" to the best of my ability below.


FEL installed, try mowing with FEL removed, see if there's a difference.
It does not make a difference. Tried with and w/o FEL. Even with and w/o mower. Still have problem.

What tires are you running.
R4's

When the steering acts up (when loader installed) lift the front end off the ground and see
if steering changes.
Will try this next time FEL is on.

When acting up, slowly turn steering wheel one way, then the other. Any difference? any
noise or buzzing?
Does buzz a little, but only when turning right.

If possible, check ps pump temp, and trans fluid temp.
Not possible.

Pull the trans dipstick note if there's any oil foaming.
No foaming.

Is your 3PH in the fully raised position?
Does not appear to make a difference. Happens when I am mowing (mmm) with the 3PH fully dropped, or just riding around and 3PH fully up AND no load on the PTO (nothing is running except the tractor)

Has anyone had the problem while not mowing and/or with mower removed? Belly or rear
mount.

I have a belly mower. I have had problem show up while using implements that do not require PTO.

In 4x4 or 2x4? any difference.
It does not make a difference.

Other items that may be helpful. 2000 2710. I am in Fuquay-Varina, NC. It gets hot, but not as hot as Texas. I noticed the problem AFTER my 50 hour service (winter 2000) and when the weather started getting warm. Checked all fluid levels, etc. All ok. The problem first presented itself by appearing to "stutter" when turning right. I have not had my power steering go out completely, but it is starting to "stutter" whether going right or left now. This problem is more apparent in high gear then any other gear. The problem is more apparent AFTER the tractor gets warm (temp gauge about 1/3 or so up) I keep 8 acres+ mowed with the mmm. Any suggestions??

greg

 

[Bird]

Greg, your "stuttering" sounds like what I experienced, but only twice, and mine, too, was after the 50 hour service, but before the next oil and filter change, front end loader was off and I was mowing with the brush hog (running full PTO speed) in 90+ weather both times.

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Thanks Bird. I have read (and re-read) the many posts related to this issue. In one you stated you had changed to Amsoil. Others (Alan) said they changed to SuperUDT at the first change. I also changed to SuperUDT at the first change. My next change is due. Maybe UDT this time???

greg

 

[Bird]

Greg, I honestly have no idea whether the different hydraulic oils make a difference or not. Of course I don't know what came in the tractor. At the 50 hour service, I used UDT (the two dealers I talked to don't even stock Super UDT - only order it if a customer wants it). And then I changed to the Amsoil at the next change.

Bird

 

[kubmech]

So far:

Fluid type does'nt make a difference.

Replacing steering unit no change/or worse. (one case)

Replacing PS pump w/noticeable improvement and no reported problems (one case/one season old).


Implements, tires, 2x4/4x4, no difference.

Old filter set-up, new filter set-up no change.

Steering trouble left only, right only and both directions, w/buzzing.

Always with outside air temp 80-100 degree range and hyd. fluid hot.

All after the 50 hour service was done. (not sure about this, can anybody help with this one ?)

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Well I don't know what they have tried to do to fix the problem. But I do have a few things to try. (A) find out the fluild that they put in, if it was Kubota Super UDT or Kubota Udt Or what ever. If they have used just one then try the other. But if they are not using the Factory Fluid (some places buy bulk brands) Then I would drain and install some of the Kubota Super Udt. The other Is if you have extra weight on the frt. end ie. loader, wheel weight or fluid in the tires I would remove it and see if the problem still happens. If not you also might try when the problem happens to jack the frt. end up and see if the problem still there. If it isn't with the weight off, you might try adding weight to the frt. end so the problem might be easier to find or make it happen a lot more or cause the part to fail!

Just to be fair We have sold Auto's and tractors for 50 years I have even had a Cheve truck back int the eightys that had a Diesel engine in it that would every once in a while not start I happen to me one time I was 3 hrs from home and by the time someone got there to help me it would start. It Did it a couple of more times to me before we sold the unit, But by then I learned to let it sit for the time it needed to restart. then about 5 or 6 years later we traded back for the truck and then engine hade been changed to a gas unit and the truck Still did the same thing!!! Never did the problem get fixed Becuse it woudl start after a bit and the Chevy Dealers never was able to get the truck to do it. I DO UNDERSTND YOUR FURSTRATION I had it with that Chevy. But I did understand where the Dealer and company was coming from.

I have had those type of problems in the past where we have replaced every part new and it still acted the same, Some times I have seen that something unrelated to the piece be the problem. Like if you have a Loader on it might be in the loader valve or the hose's Or a remote Some times it is something floating in the fluid and even though you change it, It beight heaver than the fluid will stick to the side some place and not come out. But if it i s a Real bad problem that you don't wnat to live with then hit the Company Rep. Hard that is the ones that have the Final say, And they will listen to YOU more than the Dealer. And dont be afaid to go as high up as you need to go. I have Seen John Deere, Kubota, Encore, Woods, Etc. Stand behind Tractors and Units that Either that Had Problems that they could not fix or Helped after they were out of warranty to fix. But they have to be prodded to get it done and the only person that can get it done is YOU. And Phone Calls are Easy, But Letters get more done as a rule as they can be shown to others.

 

[ronjhall]

Kubmech
Started having problem at 40 hours. <font color=orange> Kubota </font color=orange>suggested that oil and filters be changed. Dealer did it at just over 40 hours. That was last October. Did not have problem again until temperature got above 80 degrees in June.
Used rotary cutter yesterday for 1½ hour. Temperature was 74 degrees. Did not have feeling of no power steering. But steering was heavy. At idle (1000 rpm's) steering was hard and made noises.

 

[Alan L.]

My problem started after the 50 hour service. I took out whatever the factory put in (UDT I think) and put super UDT. Then the problem started. At 58 hours the dealer changed the fluids again (they said they put super UDT back in) and the problem went away for a while, but it was not as hot then either. Mr problem ranges from a grabbing of the steering wheel to complete lack of power steering. When the power steering goes completely out the steering wheel has a little quivver as though its trying to do something but can't.

Alan L., TX

 

[geneP]

Sounds like pump cavitation

 

[MChalkley]

Alan L.,

I saw your message in the "L4310 enhancements" topic, and thought I'd take a look at all the messages relating to your power steering problem. I don't normally get involved in discussions specific to the B-series tractors, because I don't know anything about them. However, I do have a suggestion. Perhaps someone else already said this, but I didn't see it (but I didn't carefully read all of them). Anyway, it certainly seems to be related to the hydraulic fluid, to me, even though I saw some comments that dispute that. Still, changing the fluid is a lot cheaper than an hour of an attorney's time. May I suggest you try Amsoil ATH? Not because I'm a dealer - if you lived near me, I'd gladly give you enough to do the switch just to see if my suspicions are confirmed. If you remember reading the early messages in my "L4310 enhancements" topic (you don't have to admit to it), you'll remember that I found the Amsoil ATH to make significant differences to the fluid temperature in the HST transmission. It's definitely better stuff than either UDT or Super UDT - it just might be enough better to do the trick. If viscosity thinning due to high temperatures is the culprit, I bet it will fix it. There! I've tried... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkC

 

[Alan L.]

Thanks Mark. Actually after I learned that Bird is using Amsoil in his 2710 and it hasn't blown up on him I decided that I would do that as a last resort. I'm still hoping to get Kubota to witness my problem and all it will take is some hot weather. We just got a blue norther here in Texas and its only going to get to 90 tomorrow. I want complete failure when I get the guy out here. My tractor ought not have the steering problem when using the oil that Kubota recommends. If I can get them to fix it, then put the Amsoil in there it seems like I'll be that much better off. If they won't fix it or won't come to my place and witness a failure then I will put the Amsoil in there as a last resort. Is that stuff more expensive than Super UDT?

Alan L., TX