Power Trac Options...

[ATOZ]

I would like to thank all of you that have participated with your problems and real world experiences with Power Trac. I'm glad I found this site!!!

Now the Dilema -

I have a Landscaping Company in North East Iowa. I had the privelage of going down to Tazewell several years ago to look at what they had to offer. I was truly impressed with their machines. But driving around the factory and digging into a gravel pile is hardly enough test time. I currently own a Kubota 4330 with loader and a Rotadairon Soil Renovator on the PTO, a Kubota RTV Utility Vehicle, and a New Holland LS 160 Skid Loader. This is my question to all of the experienced PT Owners - I am looking for a machine with similar characteristics of the skid loader but with less turf and soil damage. The skid loader weighs in @ about 6,000 lbs with no load. The skidder has tremendous break out forces unlike my Kubota. Economical to run and never a problem. I am looking to carry small to medium boulders for pond and waterfall construction, hauling gravel for stamped concrete walks and patios and anything else for going across delicate surfaces. I'm trying to make my life easire and that of my employees... I'd rather invest in more equipment and pay my guys more than hire more people. I am an equipment freak and love what PT has to offer but I am unsure of the long term quality that PT is selling. Will it last 10 years??? I am also not sold on the Deutz Diesel. I have never had a problem with any diesel engine. I replaced a dump truck last year with 260,000 miles - still ran great - the New Holland has over 2,000 hrs on it - and it gets the crap beat out of it - does the work of a machine twice its size. Should I opt for the bigger Diesels - 30, 45, 60 - or stick with a 425. I just love the 425's!!! I want to hear the pro's and con's of people that have owned one. I know all about dealer support and service - I'm not worried about that - Will the PT perform or will it be just another Novelty??? I am mostly concerned with durability issues... I look forward to everyone's response...

A to Z

 

[Spiffy]

The 425 guys will be able more directly answer your questions, but I have the 2445 and so far am very happy with the Deutz. I think it's 3000 RPM (though I get plenty of power at half throttle), so the hours might add up a little faster than a 45HP diesel running at say 2K, but I think alot of skids [and even CUTs?] run high RPMs too.

Personally, I wouldn't want to put even my 2445 against your 3ton skidsteer in a demo derby. But it waltzs around places that even a tractor would tear up the turf.

Great machines, just realize there's a right tool for every job! I still forget sometimes that I'm not running an Ag tractor that has twice the lift/breakout ect. But vice-versa is worse when I try to take a tractor places better left to the PT!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[ATOZ]

Chad

I've also been debating the purchase of a mini-excavator but @ $35,000 for a mini-x - I can't justify it - YET... How does the backhoe work on your PT? Operation, user friendliness, smooth or jerky hydraulics, accuracy, precision - you get the picture... Would you buy it again???

A to Z

 

[Spiffy]

Considering I paid less for my entire trailer package [used: 600 hours; there's another about like it on their site], its probably not a fair comparison, also my track-hoe experience is very limited, but see if I can help at all:

The hydraulics are decent [seem pretty similar on the loader too], and don't take much practice to get smooth operation; however, I have an old FarmHand loader that is like butter on the hydraulics...always spoils me.

I didn't like the leak down at first, but seemed better after I took everything to full stroke [thinking some air invaded]; the old FarmHand still wins; of course, how often are you looking at how many days the loader takes to find the ground.

For the dedicated job, the full swing of the track-hoe will really be noticed over the PT. Also, the track hoe you never have to reposition yourself to move it; it's probably some safety issue for PT, but they don't have any controls to move the machine when you are facing the hoe [like a TLB in that respect; out-riggers too].

Finally, with the oscillation between the 'halves' you don't get the full benefit of the machine's weight, but that's not really an issue.

So, if you have let's say 500hrs a year of BH work, you'll be yearning the track hoe. But if you don't have a bunch of hoe work and have other needs for a 24XX, I doubt you'd regret getting the hoe for it. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[johara1]

ATOZ,don't get pt stuff confused with any cat, jd, case or any other const. equip. they use mild steel in the frames and all other parts like buckets and blades back hoes. they are great home owner machines and to dig soft dirt around nurserys.some may have a different view than what i have,but i worked farming and heavy construction all my life.now i'm 62 and have a 422,it was the same as the old 425 except for the engine. the power is almost twice a bx22 on the bucket and heck of a lot faster.on the hoe the boom and stick is just square tubing,bolts instead of pins and bushings on the joints. to do serious work get something made to last and built for your needs.pt, are not made to put in 1000 ft. of ditch a day /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[Gravy]

ATOZ,

*Long Rambling Post Warning!* /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I think a really important thing to understand about a PT is how unique it is in the market. It's something of a "bridge" machine that helps fill the big gap between the homeowner subcompact conventional tractors (like a BX22), and the highly focused (and expensive) full-time industrial machines like a mini-ex.

Skidsteers fill part of the gap, but they tear up the ground, tip over easily, and have a considerably higher entry-level cost than a PT.

PT's excel at a sort of Swiss Army Knife role - they're not really GREAT at one particular task, but they can do a whole bunch of different things acceptably well for a relatively reasonable price and without taking acres of storage space.PT's (at least the 425's) aren't built to dig hard all day, every day like a good skidsteer, excavator, or backhoe. On the other hand, skidsteers like to fall over on slopes, excavators tram really slowly, and backhoes generally don't make acceptable mowers.

It is important to understand that PT's are not engineered and built by a multi-billion dollar mega-corporation with lawyers and stylists having more say in the design than the engineers and production people.

The PT people have less in common with John Deere than they do with Monster Garage. They build what makes sense to them within the cost constraints of the market. This results in a product with both brilliant design triumphs and glaring flaws. I'm not sure if they have a QC program, much less a department. The machines are built by people, not robots and computers. I think the people mostly love what they do, but being human, they do make mistakes. It says a lot about the company that they close down the factory for a week at the beginning of deer hunting season. I like that - you may not.


Obviously, for most of us here on the forum, the design triumphs outweigh the flaws. My prejudices will show through quite clearly. For me, there is literally no other choice. Out of my 10 acres, maybe 1/4 acre is flat enough to sit comfortably in a lawn chair. Off that 1/4 acre, there's not much that would be safe on a conventional tractor. I don't really have, or want, a "lawn". I've got a yard that's literally as much rock as soil and grass, and a bunch of woods.

I need to work in tight spaces among trees and buildings and on 20 degree slopes. My next door neighbor's father died when his Ford 8N rolled over on him while he was grading the driveway. If you work in flat, open spaces, you might not need the low center of gravity and tight articulation. I need to be able to do a little bit of a lot of different things in rapid succession, without buying (and finding space to store) a bunch of specialized machines. Your needs may be different.

My PT425 weighs around 1250lbs and is rated at a lift capacity of 800lbs. I'm pretty sure the real capacity is higher. I know the PT will easily pick up and carry rocks that I'd be hard pressed to turn over with my digging bar (this is an opportunity to learn the finer points of the "PT Pucker"). It can also be carried in the bed of a 3/4 ton pickup.

I looked at New Holland's offerings in the same price range (tractor, bushhog brand standard loader and backhoe vs. Pt425, 4in1bucket, and minihoe)for comparison, and the lift capacity per dollar didn't come close. The rollover safety factor might as well have been in another universe.

Nothing else on the market can *safely* do what I need for a price I can afford. I'm totally comfortable not having a dealer to perform overpriced maintenance for me in order to cover the costs of warranty work. The only part on the entire machine that I'd be hesitant to dive into myself is the hydrostatic pump, and with an adequate manual, I could probably handle rebuilding that.

It's hard to overemphasize the simplicity of these machines. There's an old quote from "Boss" Kettering, inventor of the battery/coil ignition system and longtime GM engineer that says something to the effect of "Parts left out of a design cost nothing and can't fail". The PT Engineers apparently have taken this for their motto. They work hard at designing the machines with just enough parts to get the job done. There are no exotic materials or technologies, no plastic cosmetic covers, and next to no mufflers.

I'm pretty sure that they think "features" are for yuppie wannabees. PT's don't need no stinkin' cruise controls, multi-range transmissions, or cupholders. PT's are descended directly from underground coal mining machines (check out "Lo Trac". For better or worse, the heritage shows through. They use Deutz air-cooled diesels in the Lo Tracs, so they use them in the PT's, too. The mining companies apparently find them to be acceptably durable (and from what I've seen working in that neck of the woods, the miners don't exactly baby any of the machinery).

For a business person, the bottom line is that you need to determine what you need, as opposed to what you think is really "cool" or even what the competition is using. As far as I can tell, for a turf-friendly boulder-carrier that can also mow, till, rake, drill postholes, and dozens of other tasks, and do it all across slopes, your choices are PT or maybe Avant. I suspect you can buy a lot of PT stuff, and pay for a few repairs, for the cost of an Avant.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gravy

 

[Phils]

Good post, Gravy, but I GOTTA DISAGREE

I DO TOO NEED A CUPHOLDER.

I just haven't figured out the best place to mount it yet. Starting to lean toward mounting it on the access plate in front of the "dashboard". It's a marine cupholder that pivots on two axis so it should work in all the angles my PT gets into.

Anybody else found a good "cup" holding solution?

Phil

 

[Bob999]

<font color="red"> They use Deutz air-cooled diesels in the Lo Tracs, so they use them in the PT's, too. </font>

A correction. The Deutz diesels are oil cooled. The include an integral radiator and fan to cool the oil.

Everything I have been able to find about the Duetz engines suggest that they are high quality long life engines. Bobcat brand skid steers used Deutz engines for many years. I suspect, but do not know for certain, that the change over to all kubota engines in Bobcat brand skid steers was more for cost and standardization reasons than any inherent problems with the Deutz engines.

 

[J_J]

If you have the ROPS system, just mount the cup holder to the post with hose clamps.

 

[Rip]

I got to say Gravy that your post on the pro's and con's of the PTs in general is perhaps the best I have read! I have an 1845 and everything you said good & not-so-good applies to my machine as well.

By the way, I mounted a bicycle water bottle holder in the rear of each of the foot wells to solve the lack-of-cup-holder issue. Works for me!