Power-Tracs are not cheaper in my opinion

[MossRoad]

I was thinking of Rome Plows. But that turned out to be an armored bulldozer used in Vietnam with a special blade for clearing the trees. I saw them on the history channel and they chained them together as described earlier and just pulled down the jungle as they went.

By the way, the Rome Plow company still exists in Georgia. They built the blades for the dozers.

 

[MossRoad]

This thread is going in different directions. How about closing out this one and starting a new one that is on subject.

That's a good suggestion.

Back to the discussion about power tracs being the most affordable tractor there is EVER!

 

[MossRoad]

While searching for a 29HP engine thread that Snowridge mentioned, I ran across something I said back in 2004.

My engine has plenty of power for the size of the unit.

If they add weights to it, we will just abuse it more. Add weight, lift more, add more weights, lift even more, again and again until it snaps.

The pivot pin problem hasn't bit me yet and I'm not sure it will until I start using a mini-hoe. I like my plastic gas tank on my older model. However, I like the layout of the engine compartment on the new models better. They keep evolving. I like that.

We also need to size a machine to the job. A small machine, while seemingly very powerful, will wear out and/or break when subjected to heavy loads over a period of time faster than a larger machine. That's why Power Trac offers so many different sized machines. We all want the most bang for our buck, but we have to be realistic as to what a machine of any size can do without subjecting it to a daily beating.

Again, I will stress that everyone should research these machines vary carefully before they buy them. They are not for everyone and if you do not enjoy mechanical work, when they break(and all machines break eventually), you will not be happy. It is a known factor. The warranty is a known factor, too. So is the absence of local dealer support. You have to be willing to accept this product on Power Trac's terms. That's the way they do business. We know this going into the deal.

I urge anyone considering one of these machines to do their research and really think about it. All of the things we are hashing over today we were aware of 3 years ago or more.

 

[MossRoad]

So I'm on the PT425 mowing my lawn Sunday afternoon with the 60" finish mower out front and I'm towing my 4' agra fab core aerator behind me doing two tasks at once and as I round the house I see a neighbor and another guy eying me up... grass clippings flying, dirt cores popping, arm rests down, canopy over my head, cool beverage in my hand and I'm thinking of this thread... there is no machine that can do the things that this machine does for the same price.

Anyone gather any numbers yet?

 

[IslandTractor]

Anyone gather any numbers yet?

Sounds like you got in some prime seat time which sounded like fun. However, your question and smiley deserve a response.

You only need to look back a few pages to see numbers that show lack of discount from list price, poor resale, much higher delivery/transport costs and double operating costs on top of not really that much difference in purchase price for equivalent HP CUT machines.

No one has failed to acknowledge the virtues of the PT, and there are many, but there are some financial downsides to consider if you are talking about total costs of ownership. Those have been pretty well discussed though you have only discussed purchase price in your posts. There are also some functional/operational limitations that prospective buyers should be comfortable with too. Not that any of these are deal breakers for most people but you should be sure you can live with them before investing in a PT. What if you want to lift a bucket 61" in the air? Or lift your grapple full of brush higher than 5ft onto a burn pile? What if you'd rather not have a screaming engine a foot away from your ears? Would any PT owner buy the 425 with a gas engine if a decent diesel version was available for the same price? What if the diesel cost $1000-1500 more? I think it is fair to point out that while the gas engine is certainly fine that most tractor buyers would happily pay extra for a diesel so you cannot say that a 22-25hp gas tractor should be compared penny for penny with a similar HP diesel CUT. What if you want an implement not sold by PT? What about the delivery costs of additional implements you might add down the road? No one disputes the benefits of mowing and moving snow with front mounted PT implements but what about the disadvantages of box blade, rake, subsoiler etc as front mounted implements? Additional hydraulics can easily be added to a CUT, front or rear. Can you add a PTO or rear 3PT hitch to a PT? How about the much smaller market for used implements? That hurts both buying implements at discount and also being able to realistically sell them locally at all. Do prospective buyers know that PT's come with a FEL minus the L and that you need to purchase the bucket separately (never the case with CUT FELs)? That is a couple hundred dollar surprise at purchase time.

The PTs are wonderful flexible tools and as I have stated repeatedly, I'd love to have one. A used one just might be the greatest deal on TBN. I'll take a nicely maintained 425 kit at 50% off list any time . However, your enthusiasm and love of the PT doesn't counter the economic arguments put forth earlier in this thread. I still cannot abide this notion that they are really such better values than similar sized CUTs.

 

[Barryh]

Sounds like you got in some prime seat time which sounded like fun. However, your question and smiley deserve a response.

You only need to look back a few pages to see numbers that show lack of discount from list price, poor resale, much higher delivery/transport costs and double operating costs on top of not really that much difference in purchase price for equivalent HP CUT machines.

No one has failed to acknowledge the virtues of the PT, and there are many, but there are some financial downsides to consider if you are talking about total costs of ownership. Those have been pretty well discussed though you have only discussed purchase price in your posts. There are also some functional/operational limitations that prospective buyers should be comfortable with too. Not that any of these are deal breakers for most people but you should be sure you can live with them before investing in a PT. What if you want to lift a bucket 61" in the air? Or lift your grapple full of brush higher than 5ft onto a burn pile? What if you'd rather not have a screaming engine a foot away from your ears? Would any PT owner buy the 425 with a gas engine if a decent diesel version was available for the same price? What if the diesel cost $1000-1500 more? I think it is fair to point out that while the gas engine is certainly fine that most tractor buyers would happily pay extra for a diesel so you cannot say that a 22-25hp gas tractor should be compared penny for penny with a similar HP diesel CUT. What if you want an implement not sold by PT? What about the delivery costs of additional implements you might add down the road? No one disputes the benefits of mowing and moving snow with front mounted PT implements but what about the disadvantages of box blade, rake, subsoiler etc as front mounted implements? Additional hydraulics can easily be added to a CUT, front or rear. Can you add a PTO or rear 3PT hitch to a PT? How about the much smaller market for used implements? That hurts both buying implements at discount and also being able to realistically sell them locally at all. Do prospective buyers know that PT's come with a FEL minus the L and that you need to purchase the bucket separately (never the case with CUT FELs)? That is a couple hundred dollar surprise at purchase time.

The PTs are wonderful flexible tools and as I have stated repeatedly, I'd love to have one. A used one just might be the greatest deal on TBN. I'll take a nicely maintained 425 kit at 50% off list any time . However, your enthusiasm and love of the PT doesn't counter the economic arguments put forth earlier in this thread. I still cannot abide this notion that they are really such better values than similar sized CUTs.

I see this argument is going on forever....

You have some valid points but, the bigger picture here I think is your comments about similar sized CUT's. Trying to compare a larger CUT like your beautiful CK20 with the PT 425, a much smaller machine is a lot of the problem.

To realize the beauty of the PT 4xx series, you have to scale down to the smaller yard sized tractors in the home owner range. Like the Kubota BX series. That's where price and, capability of the Power Trac really shines in my opinion.

People like myself are attracted to PT for the compact size versatility, and power it brings to the table and endless chores / projects it is capable of doing around our house in the way of landscaping.

Now if, I had 4 or more acres which I will when I retire. Then I might go for the larger size tractor. And that is a big might.... I like that big red CK20 you own. That type of CUT is really designed for larger properties but more so for Farm / Agricultural use.

The 425 is a great machine to own but, not the only PT in the line up that can deliver a large punch. In the PT size tractor range there are two other machines that seem to get (No Respect).

Leaving out my 180, let's go to the next one up. The mighty 422, now you come up to $7,500 add the ROP's for another 500.00 and you have a small powerful compact tractor in the BX size range.

And you can carve off another 2,000 on the price. As far as I can see, it will do anything the 425 will do minus, maybe a few inches of lift, a little more wheel torque and a few other bells and whistles. Nothing I couldn't live without for 2,000 less. No offence intended 425 guys but, a PT is a PT that's just the way I see it.

My 180 has plenty of power crawling up hills and goes anywhere I need it to go. So I'm sure the 422 does just fine for most situations. Going on this theory can a yard sized CUT or glorified Garden tractor do what the 422 can do even with a diesel engine aboard.

I don't know of any small sized tractors that can lift 800 pounds of weight for the price of the 422 or have as many as 40 attachments for quick 15 second, changing of implements.

A diesel engine would be preferred but, not at the higher price, when I can get a 422 with all of these added capabilities. I'm afraid you're not going to win this argument on a PT forum, no matter how hard you try. Just speaking for myself of course.

This all said, we all love tractors and, your CK is one handsome looking machine. It makes my mouth water, and I for one would love to hop on it for a long ride and some seat time.

 

[MossRoad]

Nobody has put it in writing yet. I want a machine that will mow the lawn well, move mountains of mulch quickly, brush hog the wilderness, plow snow fast and efficiently, change attachments in 15-30 seconds, etc... Nobody has shown me a machine that can do all of this nor has anyone put the actual dollar costs on a spreadsheet.

So far, my operating costs have been gas and oil, a hydraulic filter every 50 hours, five engine oil filters, two grease guns and two adjustable wrenches. Oh, and I blew a tire abusing the heck out of it twisting stumps out of the ground, and swapped out two caster wheels for solids. That's pretty much it. I use one gallon of fuel an hour. I have 300 hours, or 50 hours a years. If a CUT that could do what the PT425 does consumed half as much fuel, that would be about 25 gallons compared to my 50. Diesel is only a few cents cheaper than gas right now, and it was 45 cents more per gallon when I bought the PT425. The fuel costs would have been equal some years and, at best, a couple bucks more a year for me.

Oil changes... I use two quarts of Mobil1. That's 10 bucks, plus a filter, so say 15 bucks a year on oil changes. How much does an oil change cost on a CUT? 5 quarts or more = $25.00 plus filter. For the average homeowner, fuel costs and oil changes will not be that much money per year on either a CUT or a PT425.

As for the questions about what if I want to lift 1 more inch in the air... well, what if anyone wants to lift 1 more inch than their loader will? They can't do it either. I could ask questions about what if you want to mow a nice lawn with a 3000+ pound TLB and AG tires? Get off my lawn!

Lets say you want to mow your lawn and pull an aerator at the same time, as I was last Sunday, but you have your backhoe on. How are you going to accomplish that? Give us a time breakdown of how long it will take you to drop your backhoe, put on a mower, attach a pull behind implement (purchased not from Power Trac, by the way) then drop the mower and the pull behind implement and put on your backhoe again? That would take me about two minutes. Most CUT owners would not even attempt it because is is such a pain in the rear. PT owners do it any time they please. It saves us time, and time is money. Time is there to spend with the family. Any tool that gives me the opportunity to spend time with my family is priceless. I used to spend 2 to 2.5 hours a week on my lawn with my garden tractor. The PT has cut that time down to one hour a week, on average. For the same price, I could not get a CUT that would save me that amount of time.

A PT425 will run circles around any CUT of similar size in lawn mowing, brush hogging, material moving, snow plowing, post hole digging, etc... hands down. There simply is no other machine out there that can do the jobs that I need to do in the time that I have to do them that costs less to purchase and own than the PT425. If anyone has any actual dollar numbers to show me the light, please post them. I haven't seen one yet.

 

[Barryh]

Nobody has put it in writing yet. I want a machine that will mow the lawn well, move mountains of mulch quickly, brush hog the wilderness, plow snow fast and efficiently, change attachments in 15-30 seconds, etc... Nobody has shown me a machine that can do all of this nor has anyone put the actual dollar costs on a spreadsheet.

So far, my operating costs have been gas and oil, a hydraulic filter every 50 hours, five engine oil filters, two grease guns and two adjustable wrenches. Oh, and I blew a tire abusing the heck out of it twisting stumps out of the ground, and swapped out two caster wheels for solids. That's pretty much it. I use one gallon of fuel an hour. I have 300 hours, or 50 hours a years. If a CUT that could do what the PT425 does consumed half as much fuel, that would be about 25 gallons compared to my 50. Diesel is only a few cents cheaper than gas right now, and it was 45 cents more per gallon when I bought the PT425. The fuel costs would have been equal some years and, at best, a couple bucks more a year for me.

Oil changes... I use two quarts of Mobil1. That's 10 bucks, plus a filter, so say 15 bucks a year on oil changes. How much does an oil change cost on a CUT? 5 quarts or more = $25.00 plus filter. For the average homeowner, fuel costs and oil changes will not be that much money per year on either a CUT or a PT425.

As for the questions about what if I want to lift 1 more inch in the air... well, what if anyone wants to lift 1 more inch than their loader will? They can't do it either. I could ask questions about what if you want to mow a nice lawn with a 3000+ pound TLB and AG tires? Get off my lawn!

Lets say you want to mow your lawn and pull an aerator at the same time, as I was last Sunday, but you have your backhoe on. How are you going to accomplish that? Give us a time breakdown of how long it will take you to drop your backhoe, put on a mower, attach a pull behind implement (purchased not from Power Trac, by the way) then drop the mower and the pull behind implement and put on your backhoe again? That would take me about two minutes. Most CUT owners would not even attempt it because is is such a pain in the rear. PT owners do it any time they please. It saves us time, and time is money. Time is there to spend with the family. Any tool that gives me the opportunity to spend time with my family is priceless. I used to spend 2 to 2.5 hours a week on my lawn with my garden tractor. The PT has cut that time down to one hour a week, on average. For the same price, I could not get a CUT that would save me that amount of time.

A PT425 will run circles around any CUT of similar size in lawn mowing, brush hogging, material moving, snow plowing, post hole digging, etc... hands down. There simply is no other machine out there that can do the jobs that I need to do in the time that I have to do them that costs less to purchase and own than the PT425. If anyone has any actual dollar numbers to show me the light, please post them. I haven't seen one yet.

A PT- 422

 

[IslandTractor]

A PT425 will run circles around any CUT of similar size in lawn mowing, brush hogging, material moving, snow plowing, post hole digging, etc... hands down. There simply is no other machine out there that can do the jobs that I need to do in the time that I have to do them that costs less to purchase and own than the PT425. If anyone has any actual dollar numbers to show me the light, please post them. I haven't seen one yet.

Though you are a bit hyperbolic, basically I don't disagree with this statement. I think the PT is indeed a Swiss Army Knife and a very good one at that. For an acre or two a PT425 is very capable and if you focus on the implement changes unbeatable. However, with the exception of the 15 second implement changes, I can do the same tasks you list with a similarly priced CUT. In trade for taking longer to change implements I do gain some advantages over the PT so as I mentioned there are pros and cons to both systems. Can you bush hog and grapple at the same time? I can by backing my bush hog into brush then turning around and moving a dead log out of the way or pushing over a big bush with the FEL so I can keep hogging. Can you dig out a stump with your minihoe then immediately lift it with your grapple to take it away? Those are also real world tasks for many tractor owners though I would acknowledge they are tasks related more to open land rather than household/yard duty. If I was working within 200 yards of the garage I might value more highly the ability to switch implements in a few moments. Needing to drive the PT a half mile in order to change from bush hog to grapple then need to repeat that trek to bush hog again would not save time however. As it is I have learned to suit up the tractor with a front and rear mounted implement pair that works for today's jobs and then batch tasks. That works well when dealing with larger areas or tasks that are not accomplished in 30 minutes.

Perhaps this whole debate has been for naught as one simply cannot directly compare cost/value of a CUT to a PT. They have different strengths and weaknesses. What's a better deal, an apple or an orange?

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for a cherry used PT425 with mower, grapple bucket, minihoe and power rake. Those would be great around the house. And, I bet if you got a chance to use a CUT TLB you'd find things to love about them too (once you mastered the 3PT ).

 

[curly]

Nobody has put it in writing yet. I want a machine that will mow the lawn well, move mountains of mulch quickly, brush hog the wilderness, plow snow fast and efficiently, change attachments in 15-30 seconds, etc... Nobody has shown me a machine that can do all of this nor has anyone put the actual dollar costs on a spreadsheet.

So far, my operating costs have been gas and oil, a hydraulic filter every 50 hours, five engine oil filters, two grease guns and two adjustable wrenches. Oh, and I blew a tire abusing the heck out of it twisting stumps out of the ground, and swapped out two caster wheels for solids. That's pretty much it. I use one gallon of fuel an hour. I have 300 hours, or 50 hours a years. If a CUT that could do what the PT425 does consumed half as much fuel, that would be about 25 gallons compared to my 50. Diesel is only a few cents cheaper than gas right now, and it was 45 cents more per gallon when I bought the PT425. The fuel costs would have been equal some years and, at best, a couple bucks more a year for me.

Oil changes... I use two quarts of Mobil1. That's 10 bucks, plus a filter, so say 15 bucks a year on oil changes. How much does an oil change cost on a CUT? 5 quarts or more = $25.00 plus filter. For the average homeowner, fuel costs and oil changes will not be that much money per year on either a CUT or a PT425.

As for the questions about what if I want to lift 1 more inch in the air... well, what if anyone wants to lift 1 more inch than their loader will? They can't do it either. I could ask questions about what if you want to mow a nice lawn with a 3000+ pound TLB and AG tires? Get off my lawn!

Lets say you want to mow your lawn and pull an aerator at the same time, as I was last Sunday, but you have your backhoe on. How are you going to accomplish that? Give us a time breakdown of how long it will take you to drop your backhoe, put on a mower, attach a pull behind implement (purchased not from Power Trac, by the way) then drop the mower and the pull behind implement and put on your backhoe again? That would take me about two minutes. Most CUT owners would not even attempt it because is is such a pain in the rear. PT owners do it any time they please. It saves us time, and time is money. Time is there to spend with the family. Any tool that gives me the opportunity to spend time with my family is priceless. I used to spend 2 to 2.5 hours a week on my lawn with my garden tractor. The PT has cut that time down to one hour a week, on average. For the same price, I could not get a CUT that would save me that amount of time.

A PT425 will run circles around any CUT of similar size in lawn mowing, brush hogging, material moving, snow plowing, post hole digging, etc... hands down. There simply is no other machine out there that can do the jobs that I need to do in the time that I have to do them that costs less to purchase and own than the PT425. If anyone has any actual dollar numbers to show me the light, please post them. I haven't seen one yet.

If you're trying to convince yourself, I'd say you've succeeded.