rf33, ( and CowboyDoc, see you near the end
Please don't take the following (long) dissertation personally. I'm discussing IDEAS here, not making personal attacks.
I don't flatter myself that my perspective is important to anyone else. But after having one too-many "Here's what I believe!" fish-stickers paraded before me, I'm gonna share a little more-than-usual of what -I- believe.
((WARNING to the rigidly, unquestioningly "faithful"; Offensive material ahead!))
(( Warning to everyone else, ...this will take some time!))
Re. being "stuck" on the separation of church and state:
I HAVE read many of the "wonderful documents" with the "G" word, ...and would like to point out that, almost without exception, those were PRIVATE correspondences/opinions. (To which the writers were certainly entitled.)
But the significant point, in my opinion, is that those "fellows" had the wisdom to omit any such references from almost ALL of the documents WRITTEN AS THE FOUNDATIONAL STATEMENTS of NATIONAL PRINCIPLE..
I believe those forefathers did an admirable job of "picking and choosing" appropriate wording for the embodiment of their "ideals" in the documents meant to guide our nation, ...all by themselves. (...and that we modify that wording at-our-peril.)
I suppose you are aware, for example that the words "under God" were added to the "Pledge of Allegiance" in the 1950's (I think it was).
Separation? Yes, I'm all for it. I think the NATIONAL guiding document should be the United States Constitution, ...individual choice can (under that constitutional "umbrella") dictate any freely-chosen PERSONAL "guiding document".
Any citizen can choose the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, etc., or none-of-the-above, ONLY because we have ALL chosen the Constitution.
Re. "founded on Christian ideals": It is always interesting to note the peremptory assumption of all ideas of fairness, honesty, respect, etc. by a group of "believers" and the bestowal of these attributes upon THEIR (of course!) "god".
Hello!, ...anyone ever hear of the ancient Greeks? (for just ONE example) They had a few non-Christian beliefs about equality. citizenship, etc. as did the Romans, and many Eastern cultures. And yes, they all, like this one, hadn't reached perfection in the pursuit of their "ideals". But some of them were working towards it, ..as are we. The questions are about determining how best to go about it, ...and precisely (to the degree that precision is possible) what the ideals should be. Thus exchanges like this one.
The idea that any "other" BELIEF (as I've already said, ...let's remember that that IS what we're dealing with here) MUST be inferior, re. morality, etc., etc., is ever so helpful to those wishing to see any "movement" grow. It's ever so convenient for the power-seekers, as the convinced-sheep become "supporters". It's ever so convincing as the flock "Amen!"s one-another (Can 50,000, or 50,000,000 Frenchmen...Christians...Muslims...whatever, be wrong?)
And it (the "our way is the only way" belief) is ever so WRONG!
This kind of elitist (but oh-so comforting/flattering to the "chosen ones") thinking is where fanatics come from.
It makes the rest-of-humanity necessarily the foolish, or misguided, or "lost" ones. (or worse yet the "evil" ones.)
While "we" of course, are the ones "favored" by "God", and therefore are best-qualified to decide for-all the course(s) we should take.
The ideas that we cherish regarding liberty, individual-rights, etc., have been kept alive and championed throughout the ages largely in-spite-of/in-defiance-of the religious ideas prevalent at any particular time. History books anyone?
Most people would not consider themselves well-educated on a topic if their studies/stopped at the 2nd-grade level. At least not if, as adults, they were perceptive enough to become aware of the existence of universities, and had some contact with others who had proceeded much further with their search for knowledge.
Yet "believers" take pride in their continued re-reading/memorization of stories of talking-snakes-and-apples, (to use an example readily apparent in this country), and also in refusing to consider-the-possibility that there are levels-of-knowledge that might make a broader and clearer vision possible( "other" ideas being simply the "Devil"'s way of tempting you off -the-path, don'tchaknow!)(Johnny, can you repeat that for Mommy? That's a good boy! WE know what's right, don't we!?)
Now if, in the name of religious guidance, we work on Johnny's little brain, long enough, and fill it with little else, we just may convince him that now that he has become a young man, if he will simply give-up his not-so-promising-anyway life, and incidentally, kill a whole bunch of those "unbelievers" while he's at it, "God" (like a rose,, smelling just as bad by any other name)will be so pleased with him that his bountiful rewards will include, among all the other largesse, a whole bevy of virginal ("unspoiled" you understand) beauties, to fulfill his every wish. (How coincidental, ...just what might seem quite the fancy "carrot" with-which to tempt a hormone-driven youth.)
And when all is said and done, what has this pious "teaching" presented to the world, ... a "deeply religious" young man ( Sigh, ...How wonderful!) ? ... or a wacko killer! If you put a Dr. Frankenstein in a priest's robes, and let him inject poison (no matter what the label says) into the minds of youngsters, you get monsters. (psychology 101!)
If any "Christians" reading this are willing to actually consider "questioning" legitimate, (most are not) here is a thought-exercise;
Do you think that God gave Moses the sacred "rules" intended to guide humankind's behaviour through all time "carved upon tablets of stone" because: 1. God couldn't write it across the sky in stars? 2. God didn't know that stainless-steel, or titanium, or eternium (or whatever!) would hold-up better than stone? 3.God knew it, but couldn't quite get the metallurgy down. 4. God knew the stone would crumble, but didn't care, because he didn't REALLY mean for the "rules" to guide all-of-us, forever, ...just his "chosen people", for a few years. Hearsay could take the place of carved-stone after that.
5. (How much more likely is this one?) The guy who MADE UP THE STORY didn't know about "eternium"! To him, carved stone was the "last word" in permanence.
But anyway, Oh gosh!, ...Oh Gee!, the tablets (the evidence) has disappeared! (probably tucked-away in the same place as the "golden plates" (is that what they were, I forget?) of Mormonism. (Don't you hate it when that happens? Well, maybe it's for the best. Better not-to-scrutinize "miracles" too closely. At least we've got a story to sell!)
It is a sadly UN-American fact that daring-to-ask such questions has become socially-unacceptable. "Food-for-thought" has become, instead, the forbidden fruit of the Tree-of Knowledge. I won't be surprised if this "audacious" post is deleted, guilty of "disturbing-the-peace".
These discussions can easily become heated, ...and I don't wish to sound hostile. But I'm not interested in political-correctness either (which varies, with the political atmosphere of-the-moment). I am more interested in the underlying PHILOSOPHICAL values (I would prefer to call them) that offer the most promise to humankind.
Back to "picking and choosing" ideals:
You imply that the ideals this country "was founded on" are "Christian". I have taken the position that they were, instead, those that wise men and philosophers have held-up through-the-ages.
I will "pick and choose" a few ideas that have been called "Christian" by Christians themselves, through the years:
If you are a Spanish Christian, and can torture a confession from a heretic, in the most horrible fashion, you have served the Lord.('Let's stake him out, and wind his intestines onto a winch before his eyes. Hey, this Lord's work is fun!")
If you are a European Christian, and embark on a "Crusade", then while doing a bit of massacre-ing you are doing God's will. "Kill them all, and let God sort them out!' is not a hollywood-written Rambo line, but a quote attributed to a "Crusade" -commander, and "them" included women and children.
If you are an Early-American Christian, and can gather sufficient "witnesses" to condemn a "witch" to burning-at-the-stake, or hanging, ...then you have saved a soul.
If you are a Christian "explorer", maybe in Peru, and the "natives" don't bring enough gold to please HIS/Her Majesty (or even if they DO), killing them is not-an-issue, ...they're just "heathens". The priests know what God wants. Trust them!
If you are the POPE, et. al.( you know, big-wigs in one "Christian" faction) and some blasphemous astronomer thinks that HIS ideas about the sun/heavens are more accurate than "THE CURCH"'s, threaten-him-with-death, ...he'll soon change his tune, (the NERVE of him!) But, after sufficient time passes for the sheep to become aware that he was undeniably RIGHT, maybe an "apology" will limit the discredibility-factor. Good thinking!
If you are a more-recent American Christian, in need of a mission, there are all those "savages" (NW coast indians, for just one of many examples) whose idolatrous cultures must be destroyed and replaced with "right-thinking". Surely they will see that this little carved figurine-on-a-crossed-stick that you wear on YOUR string-of-beads is the "real thing" , and won't mind discarding THEIR silly "symbolic" totems. Oh,the joy and fulfillment of spreading "THE Word". Praise be!
If you are the "Father" of this particular religion-thing, why not set an example for those who might be willing to "follow" it?
Maybe just kill the firstborn sons of whomsoever doesn't swallow your line, ...the more innocent, the better! That'll show 'em who's "chosen", and who is not! Everybody loves a winner! (And while you're at it, better keep your own people in line, too. Maybe let them kill something "for your glory" now and then. How about THEIR sons? a little bizarre, maybe, but what's a god to do? Gotta have that groveling, ...big god, big ego!) "Wait, ... I know, I'll make it all "fair" by sacrificing MY OWN son. (whom I will whip-up out of nothing just for-the-purpose).
I'll tell you, you just can't beat this "all-powerful" routine. Who could think-up anything better than all this blood-and-sacrifice stuff, with a dash of eternal damnation thrown-in, and a little starting-handicap of "original sin". I crack me up! (And none of those "How come blood and sacrifice is what glorifies you?' kind-of-questions from you uppity mortals, either!)"
And what if you're the "head" Christian? Don't want things to be too simple.You're only delivering the most important message that there will ever be, for all of humankind to hear.
So just poke your head out for a relative-second, speak/demonstrate to only a handfull, and leave the rest to sort out the truth after however much garbling of the message may take place in your absence. No problem. They have their chance. No big deal if they get-it-wrong, ..just a little eternity suffering the tortures-of-the-damned. "Hey, the Devil made me do it."
And while you're speaking do it in "stories" that can be interpreted all kinds of ways, so your meaning will only be explainable by certain "agents" who will continue your work.
Don't want "everyman" thinking he can understand it on his own, ...pride's a sin, you know. Next he'll be thinking that he has some kind of "heart-connection" with your spirit, ...and won't listen to the "agents" at all! What a crazy concept!
But let's throw-in a little fun; A truly-enlightened, all-knowing/powerful, one-with-God, creator-of-the-universe spiritual teacher should be aware, if anyone should, of the circumstances (season, drought, disease, etc.,) that might result in a tree( fig, let's say) not having fruit on it at any given time. Right?
So how 'bout you walk along, find yourself inclined towards having a snack, see the tree we're talking about, and then HAVE A TIZZY! CURSE IT! Hah!, ...the people will think that makes no sense-at-all, ...which will offer the perfect opportunity to present the catch-all answer, for every other thing that will doubtlessly not-make-sense through the ages "The Lord works in mysterious ways!"
Have we got this thing all-wrapped-up, or what?
So how do I REALLY feel about all this?
Hate is a powerful word, and perhaps an undesirable emotion, ...but I think it best expresses my atitude for religious fanaticism, ...of ANY brand.
I don't want to have to even THINK ABOUT whether/or to-what-degree the people running this great nation may be, themselves, people who are inclined in even the smallest way, toward acceptance of such elitist ideas, ...or may be pandering to those who are.
The least I can hope for, and what I ask is that private beliefs (NOT certainties, "faith" notwithstanding) remain private, insofar as the possesor is purported to represent the Nation, and while he is so-occupied.
Religions have their own "representatives". If they can not be effective without the stature-of-the presidency being co-opted to their cause, then perhaps THEY need to pray for a little more help from a " higher" source than a mere president.
CowboyDoc,
I hope that we are capable of differing views and friendly discussion at-the-same-time.
(I've been away from TBN for so long that my aging brain has forgotten how to add the smiley-gifs! So this is a bit of a bare-and-brutal post.)
I don't have your words in front of me as I type this, but I think you mentioned the need for faith or belief, rather than none.
I have both.
My discussion has been about what I DON'T believe in (re. religion) and what I DO believe-in (re. politics/philosophy). Please don't mistake the absence of "thumping" sounds to indicate some great void in my life, where morality and integrity should be. I offer you the same repectful assumption, ... that you are a fine person of goodwill.
I propose that our exchanges be aimed at determing the merits of the ideas we examine, and not one-another. (not that I feel you were attacking me, ...I don't)
As to my opinions, some will agree, in full or part, and some will disagree, to whatever extent. If some are so infuriated at my presuming to think-for-myself, that they are apoplectic, hey, ...a little apoplexy never hurt anyone!
The "Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse (of conversation)", "Sex", "Politics" and "religion" have been circling my computer station while I was writing this, with two of them taking mighty swipes with their scythes.
I am used to dodging their blows, when dealing with topics such-as-this, ...so am relatively unafraid.
What I fear most is silence, ...when bold and intelligent communication might bear at least some fruit.
Respectfully,
Larry PS: re-reading this, it struck me as long-winded, even for me (hold the applause). Then I remembered that these ideas have been tossed back and forth by billions of people (and several handfulls of "gods") for thousands of years, ...and with little resolution.
So the fact that my little "grain-of-sand" contribution will most-likely have zero impact is not a great dissappointment ;-), and adding it to the pile probably won't hurt anything.
