Everyone,
The growth of this thread makes keeping-up difficult and time consuming. I will respond to/comment on several posts in what I write here - and it will be long! --can't talk about this stuff in sound-bytes. Apologies for the rough punctuation, I've forgotten how to use the colored clips, etc. (Bird, have to come back to you in another post, ...time constraints.)
[[[The thread started as approval of Mr. Bush, ...]]]
Charlie,
Most definitely. But I suggest that you have left out of your (IMO very-good) outline, ...the next (and "triggering") section, where the writer's approval became GOD's (specifically, ...the Christian God's) approval of Mr. Bush. This "segue" is a little more subtle than the one you refer-to below, but no less significant.
[[[segued through concern by some of us about erosion of civil liberties, jumped back to statements of religious faith and analysis of religious faith, even to the healing power of faith itself, continued through a direct challenge to organized religion as the basis of ethical conduct, and took a mildly ironic side trip to the dictionary.
...
What is most astonishing to me is that the thread has completed that journey without anyone calling anyone else a pejorative name. Kudos to all involved, and TBN.
Charlie]]]
I agree Charlie,...TBN is one of only two threads, of the ones I visit, that has maintained this level of civility during controversial exchanges.
-----------------------------
[[[But honestly, I have never met the quantity and quality of knowledge and friendship shown by the TBN participants. My hats off to all of you.
Terry]]]
Terry, The "friendship" you mention is best preserved by talking ABOUT issues/ideas, talking TO members,... but NOT talking ABOUT members, when posting to a "public" forum.
Examples:1.Your "opinion" that "LARRY" "misconstrued" etc., ...and your amazement, repeated for emphasis.."Truely(sic) amazing!!" (what?, the poor reading comprehension?, the unbelievable stupidity?, the blindness to the obvious?)
2. Your "supposition" about what "LARRY" is "trying to do". (...poor fool, pathetically tilting-at-windmills!) ( No, I don't think you meant any of these things, but it's better to leave out inferences about members.)
Please don't try to speak-for/explain/excuse/define me to others on this list. If you want to know what I am "trying-to-do" asking me is better than "supposing". And others are free to "suppose" for themselves what my words mean, or to ask.
I'm suggesting that thoughts and comments on the topic-under-discussion are appropriate, ... characterization/judgements of other posters are not.
And they add nothing to the thought-content of YOUR contribution.
Certainly your contribution is welcome.
No hard feelings, just a suggestion as to "style", ... and as I've said, I join you and Charlie in the hat-tipping!
I'll respond to some parts of your post first, ...and attempt to explain my "construing"(of the original post) after that:
[[[What is very interesting about this thread is "what" originated the discussion.
It amazes me as why Larry would misconstrue (IMHO) what was originally written in Scruffy's post. I fail to see how a simple statement by the President about his FAITH has been turned into a philosophical discussion about religion. Truely amazing!!
The unknown writer simply commented on the Presidents faith in Jesus in helping him in his life's decisions. How does that become a statement of religion in government? I fail to see the connection.]]]
I think the connection should be clear when I point out the implications of the anything-BUT-"simple" comments of Mr. Anonymous.(maybe won't, ...but should!)
[[[ Did President Bush ask everyone to become a Catholic or a Baptist? Did President Bush ask Congress to pass legislation to make Christianity the official or preferred Federal religion? I think not....]]]
Of course not! And if really blatant statements are avoided, many people will "miss" the subtle shifting of perceptions. That's the point! Citizenship requires a level of sophistication, in place of naivete'. Caution!...strong medicine, ...THINK before swallowing!
[[[I suppose Larry is just trying to understand faith. A truely monumental task. I do not consider myself born again or affiliated with any organized faith. But, there are fundamental reasons in being a Christian. Most Christians wrestle with these issues sometime in their life. I was born and raised a Catholic and switched over to being a Lutheran. What is the difference between the two.... faith in the church doctrine. That is what makes someone a Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, or whatever. You cannot apply logic or philosophical reasoning to religious beliefs.]]]
Oh really?! Why, when considering the most fundamental questions of existence, should we suspend critical thought and reason, ...the attributes that serve well in every other human endeavor? The intelligence that we were created with, the "gift" that we like to think differentiates humans from the rest of animal-kind, ... was "given" to be NOT-used?
Yes, you CAN "apply" it, ...and some of us do!
I suggest that people believe this because they have been told to. They have been made to believe that if answers aren't readily apparent, ...you shouldn't ask the questions. And they have been told it by those with much to gain by stifling questioners.
[[[Apples + oranges = ??? Makes no sense to me.]]]
...and because it(the apple/orange thing) makes no sense to you , you dismiss it? Good,..sounds like an intelligent approach. Why abandon that approach just so unpalatable-teachings will (conveniently) become acceptable? The pressure to "go-along" is terrific, isn't it? Fear, hope and the sense-of-belonging, ...all skillfully applied to "mold" thinking and behavior.
[[[Wow, again - a truely amazing thread.
.... I sat in wonder all day long reading it and felt compelled to participate.
In fact, I'm going to print it off for my family to read.
Terry]]]
Good idea! There is much more in this thread than can be thoughtfully considered with a quick reading.
---------------------------------------
Now my "construing" of what was really said in the original post (or at least parts of it):
[[President Bush
This was the same man who came within a hair's breadth of losing an election in November, who withstood the political chicanery of the Florida Democratic machine to fix the vote count.]]
With the first sentence, "Anonymous" has accused/convicted the party whose candidate received the votes of over half of the citizens in the country, of attempting to "rig" the election. Nice inoffensive beginning, shouldn't stir anybody up!
[[This was the same man who mangled syntax even more than his father, and whose speaking missteps became known as "Bushisms."]]
The real Bush!(some would say)
[[And on Friday, this was the man who bore the weight of the world and the responsibilities of a generation with dignity, class, confidence, appropriate solemnity, and even much-needed wit.]]
The "speechwriter"'s Bush!(the same "some" would say)
[[whereas Al Gore almost frantically huffed and puffed, trying to gin up something out of nothing, Bush quietly but confidently waited at his ranch.]]
Everybody look! Here's the comical, ridiculous Gore wanting to wait while the indeterminate outcome of a hard-fought, very-close political race is finalized, ..wait, I mean "frantically huffing and puffing!
[[this was the same man who was the first politician ever in recent memory to name Jesus Christ as the lord of his life on public TV.]]
This thread is evidence that some citizens would react negatively to what the writer obviously considers a big plus.
[[ Not an oblique reference to being "born-again" or having a "life change." He said the un-PC-like phrase, "Jesus Christ," to which his handlers and advisors, no doubt, off stage, were also saying, "Jesus Christ" in a much different tone.]]
And these advisors thought it unwise WHY? Because they knew many citizens would not want to hear this kind of stuff from the President. And in many cases they were right. I'm one.
[[God has a way of honoring those who honor Him]].
Now, THINK ABOUT THIS ONE! Because Bush has honored Him, GOD, (the CHRISTIAN God) is going to "honor"(help) Bush. Help him what, ...mow the lawn? No ...run the country! So now we will be so fortunate as to have the Christian God and Bush running the country. (Somebody play "Onward Christian soldiers".)
Whereas in the past the president has led the country,we have now "segued"(with a smooth Jackie Gleason slide) into a situation where the Christian God AND the President will lead the country. RELIGION has been mixed with POLITICS!
(...and all with one innocuous-seeming sentence. Very slick!...and more yet-to-come)
[[He (Bush)actually loves those who hate him.
See, this was the man who learned early on how faith worked: by praying for his enemies, you "heap burning coals upon their heads."]]
Now THERE is a love-your-neighbor concept if I ever heard one: Pray for them, because you "love" them, (wink, wink), because you really know that the result of your loving-prayer will be "burning coals" heaped-on-their-heads.
Give me a break!.. and people swallow this stuff? Twisted, Dude!
But hey, ...we'll just skip-over these little flies-in-the-ointment, because " God works in mysterious ways!"
[[As he sat down next to his wife, immediately I knew that even if his faith ever faltered, hers didn't. I have never seen a more peaceful face than Laura Bush, whose eyes seemed as though they were already gazing at the final outcome . . . not just of this conflict, but of her reward in Heaven itself.]]
So now we have the First Lady in-line too. Enraptured gaze focused on the Christian Heaven, while she watches over God and Bush leading America. (Gee, how could anyone reading this have construed it as "pushing" Bush's religion? They're probably just paranoid sinners afraid of the triumphant coming-of-the-Lord!)
[[In this marriage, you indeed got two for the price of one.]]
Yeah, but two what? (that's a question that might not have occurred to me had I not read this post)
[[Then came the defining moment of our generation.]]
Ah, a clue to the identity of Anonymous, ...he's the self-appointed "Labeler-of-Moments". (Does anybody else get a vote on this?)
[[W was able to deliver his remarks without losing either his resolve or his focus, or, more important, his confidence.]]
O.K., so there ARE miracles.
[[It was as if God's hand, which had
guided him through that sliver-thin election, now rested fully on him.]]
Hmmm. God's hand guiding Bush through the election, and now resting fully on him (as, lest we forget, he runs-the-country!). Nope, no religion & politics imagery there. Silly of us to think so.
[[As he walked back to his seat, the camera angle was appropriate. He was virtually alone in the scene, alone in that massive place of God, just him and the Lord.]]
Just him and HIM, together.Why, oh why, do I keep getting this insane impression that Bush's religion is being "PUSHED" here? I must really be losing-it.)
[[In that brief time it took him to return to his seat, I believe he heard words to the effect of, "You can do this, George. I am with you always. And you can do this well, because I am going before you. And don't worry about the weight. I've got it." And I saw in his eyes a quiet acknowledgment. "I know. Thank you, Lord."]]
Here I go again, the Devil must be blinding me to what picture is really being painted here. I see the President of the United states of America having a conversation with the Christian God, about helping Bush with the presidency.
Shaking my head doesn't help. Maybe they're talking about Bush's gym workout!?
[[Back at his seat, when W sat down, George H. W. Bush reached over and took his son's hand. ...
I believe that in that fatherly squeeze George H. W. said, "I wish I could do this for you, son, but I can't. You have to do this on your own." W squeezed back and gave him that look of peace that Laura had kept throughout. It said, "I don't have to do it alone, dad. I've got help."]]
And so we ride into the sunset, warmed by the assurance that the Christian God is beside Bush (and the glassy-eyed First Lady,) at the helm of our ship-of-state. All you Americans with Buddhist gods, or Moslem gods, or Hindu gods, or whatever, ...maybe NEXT time.
But hey, it's just politics, ...who said anything about religion?
------------------------------------------
Now, I'll say it again: If this picture story was of an eight-armed Hindu God hugging Bush and Laura with two, blessing the crowd with two, steering the good-ship U.S.A.with two, and giving a victory-sign with the other two,then the Christians who find nothing amiss(duh!) with this post would be singing another tune.
(Apologies to any Hindu readers, the example was used only to make a point)
And as to those who have questioned another poster's references to
Anonymous's attempt to "deify" Bush, I have to agree, at least, that it was certainly deification-by-association.
Before I close, I'd like to state that I am definitely fully behind our President in his function as the Head-of-State. And I think Laura Bush is both a fine person, and a wonderfully representative First Lady. AND, I fully respect Bush's right to any personal faith he chooses to embrace. I just think it's better for the country that the two elements of his life remain in their respective arenas, i.e., "public" and "private".
In this critique, my "jabs" at Bush (for whom I voted) were really intended to let some hot air out of the WRITER's puffery. I consider blind-obedience (and thoughtless "swallowing") un-American. So it was my patriotic-duty to "question authority"
(Although, mind you, I DON'T really consider Anonymous an authority.)
This may not have been my "best" shot, but it took a while to write, and it's the LAST shot I'm going to take at the "Thread-inspiring" post. Anyone who doesn't see the "spin" of what anonymous wrote by now, doesn't want/isn't likely to, no matter what is said.
If the post had been presented to "the choir", i.e. the Christian community, via newsletters, church handouts, etc. its reception would undoubtedly be assured. It would be met with "Amen!"s, right and left. Putting it on the world-wide forum of the Internet is another matter. A different response had to be expected.
Well, it's 3:35 am now, and the first 2" of this winter's snow (here, anyway)has fallen while I was writing. Definitely time-to-go.
All this "religious" talk has me inclined to close with a prayer;
Dear God, please save the country from fanatics, hypocrites, propagandists (transparent or otherwise,) and "sheep".
Larry
