Pressure Tank Installation-Need some Expertise on a Pressure Tank Delema Please

[MarkV]

I was just wondering how much you are irrigating? I have a vacation house with 3.5 gal per minute flow and have only run out of water one time. It seem with 22+ per minute and a 1000 gal reserve you must be pushing a lot of water.

MarkV

 

[BSVLY]

I was just wondering how much you are irrigating? I have a vacation house with 3.5 gal per minute flow and have only run out of water one time. It seem with 22+ per minute and a 1000 gal reserve you must be pushing a lot of water.MarkV

Last month we averages 1200 gallons/day and we are not irrigating a lot yet. we have over two hundred plants (trees and shrubs), a small 30-tree orchard plus a 1500 sq ft greenhouse and a 2- bath home. In the summer, with humidity at 6-13%, and temps near 90-100F ; we need to water everything every day. That's why they call this a desert I guess. all the greenery attracts the wildlife which we enjoy. Putting in a vineyard right now on drip system too. Never ends. We have 21 acres and are trying to green-up only 5 or 6 of them.

 

[rmorey]

Last month we averages 1200 gallons/day and we are not irrigating a lot yet. we have over two hundred plants (trees and shrubs), a small 30-tree orchard plus a 1500 sq ft greenhouse and a 2- bath home. In the summer, with humidity at 6-13%, and temps near 90-100F ; we need to water everything every day. That's why they call this a desert I guess. all the greenery attracts the wildlife which we enjoy. Putting in a vineyard right now on drip system too. Never ends. We have 21 acres and are trying to green-up only 5 or 6 of them.

With over 25 gpm, flow from the well, what is the purpose of the large tankage. The well could feed the whole shootin' match directly without any problems.

 

[BSVLY]

yes it could...and the reason for the storage tank is twofold: 1) Let the down well pump rest while the booster feeds the system from storage, and 2) to have emergency water in case of power outage. Mainly-the system was desinged to reduce start-ups on the submersible pump-which will lengthen its lifespan. The storage tank allows the pressure tanks to cycle 10 times before the sub pump comes on. That is a big difference.

make sense??

With over 25 gpm, flow from the well, what is the purpose of the large tankage. The well could feed the whole shootin' match directly without any problems.

 

[dave1949]

I bet you take your water supply pretty seriously in the desert!

Somehow though, your system seems over-complicated. I think of a generator as the answer to a power outage, unless you get frequent short duration outages. In any case if the power is out, you won't get more water than what happens to be in your pressure tank(s).

How much water is in those 84 gal. tanks when the power goes out is the luck of the draw. It might happen with full tanks, or it might happen just before the tanks would be re-filled.

I guess I would try to envision it as two distinct water systems rather than trying to inter-couple their operation. The well supplies the 1000 gal. tank, and you treat the 1000 gal. tank as if it were a well for the booster pump supply to the house. As long as you have run-dry protection on the booster pump, [Edit: and set the float switch for the 1000 gal tank to refill with 200-250 gal remaining] you should be safe.

 

[TheGoose]

I can see the logic behind that set-up, but there are easier ways to accomplish what you are trying to do than using an extra pump and several different tanks.

First off, the booster pump should still be able to pump while the big tank is filling. Someone built in an extra safety to the system in case the big tank did not fill so the booster would not burn up.

The problem with this type of set-up is that WHEN your submersible well pump goes out, and it will, you will not know it until the storage tank goes empty and you lose your supply to the booster pump. If you're filling the big tank 2-3 times a day, unless you check your well everyday 2-3 times a day then you're not gonna know there is a problem until the big tank is empty.

What you need instead is to install a 2nd float switch on the big tank that will kick the pump out when the level is low. I'm not sure exactly how you could interface this with your existing equipment or if you would need another relay. I don't normally deal with this type of set-up so there are a lot of unknowns.

IMO, you would be better served going with a constant pressure valve set-up and eliminating the extra holding tank and pump. You're not saving your pump by "letting it rest". You're pumping the same exact amount of water, but you're pumping it twice.

Let me illustrate my point-
You can reduce your cycling by : having a big storage tank (1,000 gallons), float for tank, 2nd pump with interface/hardware, extra tanks, plumbing, switches and electrical interlocks.

Or you can install a constant pressure valve with one tank, large or small. One pump, one tank, one pressure switch. Most CPV's (constant pressure valves) only need 1-2 gallons per minute flow to keep the system from shutting off. They work by throttling the pump back during low to medium usage so that the pump will not shut off. When you quit using water the system will pump up and shut off. When you have a large demand they open up and allow more flow thru to the system.

Good luck and post up what you find out.
BTW I am a Licensed WW and Pump installer in Tx.

yes it could...and the reason for the storage tank is twofold: 1) Let the down well pump rest while the booster feeds the system from storage, and 2) to have emergency water in case of power outage. Mainly-the system was desinged to reduce start-ups on the submersible pump-which will lengthen its lifespan. The storage tank allows the pressure tanks to cycle 10 times before the sub pump comes on. That is a big difference.

make sense??

 

[BSVLY]

Thank for the comments. Yes we are considering a gen set for backup. Working the issue there. And yes you are correct on the water to the house being only what happens to be in the P-tanks when the power goes down. However-I am set up to use a dc pump and batteries and aux solar panel to pump the water from the 1000 gallon tank in an emergency-you know-to flush toilets with buckets etc.

I bet you take your water supply pretty seriously in the desert!

Somehow though, your system seems over-complicated. I think of a generator as the answer to a power outage, unless you get frequent short duration outages. In any case if the power is out, you won't get more water than what happens to be in your pressure tank(s).

How much water is in those 84 gal. tanks when the power goes out is the luck of the draw. It might happen with full tanks, or it might happen just before the tanks would be re-filled.

I guess I would try to envision it as two distinct water systems rather than trying to inter-couple their operation. The well supplies the 1000 gal. tank, and you treat the 1000 gal. tank as if it were a well for the booster pump supply to the house. As long as you have run-dry protection on the booster pump, [Edit: and set the float switch for the 1000 gal tank to refill with 200-250 gal remaining] you should be safe.

 

[BSVLY]

I appreciate you input as well. You make some valid points and I'm considering options--like you say. two options on the table are to install that third P-Tank, or plumb a separate line to the house-separate from the entire system. Don't want to change the system all that much.

Say-If I go the route of the third P-Tank---anything I should install with the P-Tank besides a check valve and shut-off?

Thanks

I can see the logic behind that set-up, but there are easier ways to accomplish what you are trying to do than using an extra pump and several different tanks.

First off, the booster pump should still be able to pump while the big tank is filling. Someone built in an extra safety to the system in case the big tank did not fill so the booster would not burn up.

The problem with this type of set-up is that WHEN your submersible well pump goes out, and it will, you will not know it until the storage tank goes empty and you lose your supply to the booster pump. If you're filling the big tank 2-3 times a day, unless you check your well everyday 2-3 times a day then you're not gonna know there is a problem until the big tank is empty.

What you need instead is to install a 2nd float switch on the big tank that will kick the pump out when the level is low. I'm not sure exactly how you could interface this with your existing equipment or if you would need another relay. I don't normally deal with this type of set-up so there are a lot of unknowns.

IMO, you would be better served going with a constant pressure valve set-up and eliminating the extra holding tank and pump. You're not saving your pump by "letting it rest". You're pumping the same exact amount of water, but you're pumping it twice.

Let me illustrate my point-
You can reduce your cycling by : having a big storage tank (1,000 gallons), float for tank, 2nd pump with interface/hardware, extra tanks, plumbing, switches and electrical interlocks.

Or you can install a constant pressure valve with one tank, large or small. One pump, one tank, one pressure switch. Most CPV's (constant pressure valves) only need 1-2 gallons per minute flow to keep the system from shutting off. They work by throttling the pump back during low to medium usage so that the pump will not shut off. When you quit using water the system will pump up and shut off. When you have a large demand they open up and allow more flow thru to the system.

Good luck and post up what you find out.
BTW I am a Licensed WW and Pump installer in Tx.

 

[TheGoose]

It will work, but here are some things to consider.

Bladder tanks, if that's what you're going to install, have a "sudden empty" factor. That is, they have full pressure and flow all the way up until the time that they are empty, and then the water suddenly runs out. So if your house tank is not completely full when the booster well shuts off then you won't have that full capacity, and you will have no way of knowing the level of the tank. You could be using water in say, the shower, and the water will completely and suddenly shut off.

I assume you will install a check-valve just before the tank so that the "house tank" runs on regular tank pressure? If there is no check-valve then the water in the house tank will back-feed any flow towards the well side.

I might consider installing a large hydro-pneumatic galvanized tank. If you give it a good air charge it will hold 20-30 gallons of drawdown and the loss of water/pressure will not be so sudden as with the bladder tank.

It sounds like you trust your well guy so just listen to what he says. Let us know how the system works out for you. Without seeing the rest of the set-up it is difficult to really know exactly the best way to do things.

Good Luck.

 

[BSVLY]

Thanks for the straightforward info. I value it! More things to consider. Yes my well tech is trusted, has red this thread and has reasons to stick to what I have started. Your point about the hose P-Tank being only half charged when the booster kicks-out, had not considered that. That almost renders it redundantly useless I think.. Will have to look into the "large hydro-pneumatic galvanized tank". Thanks again, and yes I will report back here on the eventual out come in the next few months.

It will work, but here are some things to consider.

Bladder tanks, if that's what you're going to install, have a "sudden empty" factor. That is, they have full pressure and flow all the way up until the time that they are empty, and then the water suddenly runs out. So if your house tank is not completely full when the booster well shuts off then you won't have that full capacity, and you will have no way of knowing the level of the tank. You could be using water in say, the shower, and the water will completely and suddenly shut off.

I assume you will install a check-valve just before the tank so that the "house tank" runs on regular tank pressure? If there is no check-valve then the water in the house tank will back-feed any flow towards the well side.

I might consider installing a large hydro-pneumatic galvanized tank. If you give it a good air charge it will hold 20-30 gallons of drawdown and the loss of water/pressure will not be so sudden as with the bladder tank.

It sounds like you trust your well guy so just listen to what he says. Let us know how the system works out for you. Without seeing the rest of the set-up it is difficult to really know exactly the best way to do things.

Good Luck.