Problem with Lift Tilt Dump...

[J_J]

I may also be using the wrong words. But no, I have 3 pumps. One wheels, one PTO one steering, lift and brakes (did not know brakes were in this circuit).

I have a pressure gauge on the brakes so I know I am getting the goods.

Just got off the phone with Terry. Thought is that it might be back to the relief valve in the PTO block. His thought is that the brakes need only a bit of pressure, and that is what gets by the valve, but not enough to drive the steering and lift.

We will see. He wants me to get the tractor cold, start it, and cycle the brakes 5 times. See if the pressure drops.

Carl,

If what you said is true, [ one steering, lift and brakes (did not know brakes were in this circuit)], after the accumulator has zero pressure, take the line off to the accumulator and cap the line and plug the accumulator, and see if you have the correct pressure for the steering and lift. You did say that the relief valve look good, but was it working correctly.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I did not know that my brakes were on the steering circuit as well. I talked to Terry about a schematic. He said they are finally starting on working on one. that said, I know that the 2008's have some differences from my 2002.

Whatever...

Terry has gone over to the engineers. We are going to do a conference call tomorrow morning. Terry is completely stumped. He feels it is something in the Accumulator.

Also, it seems heat related. Once the tractor warms up I no longer have the problem.

 

[BobRip]

The people at POWER-TRAC must be laughing their as* off at us trying to figure out just what and how they did things. If I were a lawyer, I think that I would start a class action suit involving everyone that had ever purchased a PT, demanding that a service manual be provided to every owner with complete theory of operations, pictures, and schematics for every model and modification they have ever done. They rely on one person to answer all our questions. I don't think most of us would have to call and ask questions if we had decent owners/service manuals and parts manual. They must be afraid or ashamed that they do not know how to make/design a good service manual. A good owners manual is availiable all the time, and we don't put them in a lockup over the weekend either. They get a -5 for technical manuals, and schematics. If every new prospective owner would demand a comprehensive and usable manual with their machine before they purchased, PT might get off their as* and provide same.

.

PT would just go out of business, restart with a new name, the lawyer would make money and all of our machines would be worthless. We would still not have manuals. Nobody wins a lawsuit except the lawyers. Remember, the legal system was created and fine tuned by lawyers and for lawyers. (I wonder if this will be deleted).

 

[woodlandfarms]

(I wonder if this will be deleted).

Just you Bob. I would hunker down for a few months. Make as few waves as possible ;-)

 

[toy]

Woodlandfarms does your machine have a brake that works like a car brake [apply pressure and it stops] or is the brake you are talking about one that when you start the machine it builds up pressure and releases the brake and when you shut off the machine it automatically sets the brake and it has a lever that when you turn it it will set the brake while the machine is running or some version of that? Just curious our 425's just have a parking brake that has a pin that engages a cog on the front wheels, nothing to write home about. If yours is a brake that builds up pressure when you start it up and releases and when you shut the machine down it sets the brake. If that is the way it works I have seen that system before. The ones that we had, had one hose that came up to a ball valve and then to a master cylinder and then teed out to each of the brake disks. With that system you could while the machine was off cut the ball valve off[that blocked the oil from going back to tank and then the master cylinder had a hand pump on it that you could pump up the brakes to move the machine when it was broke down. The machines that we had had electric traction motors and the disc brakes was hooked up to the shaft on the electric motor and then a drive shaft to each of the wheels. How is the disc hooked up to the wheels on your machine?

 

[SpringHollow]

the brake you are talking about one that when you start the machine it builds up pressure and releases the brake and when you shut off the machine it automatically sets the brake and it has a lever that when you turn it it will set the brake while the machine is running or some version of that? ... With that system you could while the machine was off cut the ball valve off[that blocked the oil from going back to tank and then the master cylinder had a hand pump on it that you could pump up the brakes to move the machine when it was broke down.

That is the kind he has.

Ken

 

[J_J]

I did not know that my brakes were on the steering circuit as well. I talked to Terry about a schematic. He said they are finally starting on working on one. that said, I know that the 2008's have some differences from my 2002.

Whatever...

Terry has gone over to the engineers. We are going to do a conference call tomorrow morning. Terry is completely stumped. He feels it is something in the Accumulator.

Also, it seems heat related. Once the tractor warms up I no longer have the problem.

Carl,

While thinking about your brake system last night, I thought perhaps they did use the steering pump for this reason. The drive pump only produces pressure and volume when the treadle is activated. The steering and lift pump is a gear pump and is producing pressure and volume all the time. So from an engineering stand point, why not use the steering pump to charge the accumulator. Some one had mentioned something about a shuttle valve in one of the circuits that wore out and caused problems. Anyway, a test gage applied throughout the path of the hydraulic fluid would help to analyze the situation, and come up with a logical solution.

However, after looking at the schematic for the 1850, the accumulator looks like it is supplied by fluid from the top of the drive pump. Now the question is after you start the engine, without touching the treadles, does the pressure build up in the accumulator. What I am trying to get to is,
does the accumulator charge from the drive pump at rest. Maybe you have a bastardized experiment version from our good folk at PT.

 

[J_J]

Bob, Do you have a hydraulic schematic of the lift/tilt circuit for the 1850?

 

[Bob999]

Here is the diagram of the lift/tilt circuit.

 

[MossRoad]

Must be something in the Tazewell water.

I think the chemical name is a radio active element... confusium.

 

[MossRoad]

The people at POWER-TRAC must be laughing their as* off at us trying to figure out just what and how they did things. If I were a lawyer, I think that I would start a class action suit involving everyone that had ever purchased a PT,.....

AAAAA! Don't do it! They'll just go bankrupt and we will all be in deep doo-doo then.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Here is the latest update...

It is a bad accumulator. It needs to be rebuilt by Tazwell. So it, and the pressure cylinder (do not know what the name of it is at the moment) are going in to the shop. This will not happen until I head back to LA (maybe a couple of weeks) so I am going to just have to rough it.

Our tests revealed pump was good, bypass valve was working, but that the accumulator needed to get warm before it would operate (it is cold in the AM and maybe that is why I did not notice this until now as it is only now starting to get cold).

They are going to recharge the pressure cylinder, and then rebuild the accumulator.

JJ. I think this might help. There is a spring valve on the accumulator. Something that hangs off the side. It is bad I think. The pump is creating pressure, and the brakes are getting pressure. Just the steering / lift tilt is not and needs a little love to get going.

The PDF is not my PT. There are some differences...

One of my side plans is to replace a few more hoses (the ones coming off the accumulator) in my ever increasing process of updating hoses.

As for brakes, bob had your answer.

I do have some photos, will get those up tonight.

 

[J_J]

David,

Yep, you are probably right. They would be stupid not to read this forum. I think they do read the data, but don't know what to do about it. You would think any company worth a crap would give better service to the people that helps keep them in business. With all the data we have come up with over many years, you would think they would almost have a perfect machine with the best manual available, but no they are still trucking along with that old mentality. I wonder if any of the folks at PT even own a PT? I am betting that they don't. They probably drive a John Deere or a Kubota. I feel really bad for the people that don't know enough about the PT, hoping that PT will keep them out of trouble, and especially the people that use their machine in a business. That would give me cause to get something that is supported and has manuals.
I think the PT is a good machine, but could be a better machine, but do you think we will ever see anyone brag about the manuals both parts and service. I believe that someone even said he had a very good set of shop manuals for their PT's. but don't remember who. We can make you a PT, but no manuals, the Xerox is broke. You have to take our word about it.

 

[SnowRidge]

Terry told me he has a PT. I don't remember which model it is.

 

[J_J]

Terry told me he has a PT. I don't remember which model it is.

I wonder if he has a manual for his PT.

 

[SnowRidge]

Absolutely! He just reads his own mind.

 

[BobRip]

Just you Bob. I would hunker down for a few months. Make as few waves as possible ;-)

It's just lawyers. They will not kill me but they might make my 401 K worth a lot less. Oh, they already did that.

 

[J_J]

Carl, Did you send your parts back to PT to rebuild, or to a local hydraulic shop?

 

[J_J]

Carl, On the accumulator thing, Accumulators will work in almost any condition, and don't have to get warm to work. That accumulator is simply a steel vessel with a spring and a bladder or piston. If it comes up to pressure with the pump running, and it holds, the accumulator is good. If you can pump up the accumulator and it holds it is good. The setup on the output of the accumulator is what keeps the fluid under pressure. It is probably something like a shuttle valve which keeps the fluid contained until something triggers the valve. What that has to do with the steering, is beyond me until I can see a schematic of the system as installed in your machine. If you sent it back to PT, make then send you a schematic for that system reiterating the fact that all of us would desire a decent manual. ****, just tell; them you would like to make of movie of their PT program, and especially their MANUAL producing factory.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I am not sending said offending device back until either the weather turns bad or I go out on location to shoot. If it take a couple of minutes to work I can live with that, as long as it does not abandon me at the bottom of a hill. Will keep you all posted on this issue.

Carl