Propane shortage

[batwing]

No real dog in this fight since we use no Propane whatsoever, but here in the city on our November NG bill we used 100 therms which with all the extra fees, taxes & etc., came to about $1.05 per therm all included. Can't say what they charge up in the country since we have had the NG disconnected for many years (there is a NG line running along the road). Our house in the city is almost all gas for cooking, water heater, clothes dryer & heat. Electric bill is minimal except during the hot, muggy summer when we run the AC.

In planning to build a new house out of our barn frame we are considering going geothermal (possibly a horizontal ground loop system), with NG as a backup, but are still considering what will be best. Having 80 acres of mostly woods the temptation to burn wood is high, but I have to consider ease of use for my spouse if something happens to me.

I would put NG with floor heat, you would love it.

 

[teejk]

I heard this morning about a big dairy farmer in our neighborhood (central Wis) that had locked-in the price with the Co-op (it's a an election you make in July that costs money that is supposed to allow them to buy futures contracts) and also was enrolled in "keep-fill" (meaning you get it according to your usage pattern whether you need it or not). They didn't honor the keep-fill and when they showed up he was limited to 150 gals at $5.02/gal. They aren't honoring the lock-in agreement either. Last year our highest price was $1.49. Do the math on $5.02 one year later. Whoever is manipulating the market has over-shot the "flying below the radar" level and there will be a lot of questions and hopefully some justice. Like in taxes or any market or life in general, pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered.

 

[batwing]

Fill your tank as close to Fall as you can or better yet, buy a second tank and stock up.

Yes like stocking up with shells has done a great Job, that's what happened to gas in the rationing days.

 

[teejk]

I would put NG with floor heat, you would love it.

I installed the in-floor heat in our entire house (suspended tubing looped through the floor joists with aluminum fins and insulated from the bottom, in effect creating a heated air pocket below the sub floors) using a very expensive Weil McLain tankless modulating boiler. I don't think there is any money advantage with in-floor radiant heat but the overall comfort level can't be compared to anything else. I have it in my shop building also (imbedded in the slab) running with a high efficiency tank water heater. There is something in the brain that says if your feet and legs are warm, you are warm all over. Neither building was "fun" to install (we did the tubing ourselves) but worth it. If propane prices don't relax, I'll be looking at an auxilary fule source to tie into the existing systems.

 

[rmorey]

We bought a new Generac 14kW generator earlier this month. I called my supplier and told them I needed a pair of 420 litre tanks to run it. They said they would be a month getting to us. Called another supplier and they came out the next day with the tanks.

Two days later, they came and filled them. $0.935 per litre. Ouch! :shocked:

 

[batwing]

I installed the in-floor heat in our entire house (suspended tubing looped through the floor joists with aluminum fins and insulated from the bottom, in effect creating a heated air pocket below the sub floors) using a very expensive Weil McLain tankless modulating boiler. I don't think there is any money advantage with in-floor radiant heat but the overall comfort level can't be compared to anything else. I have it in my shop building also (imbedded in the slab) running with a high efficiency tank water heater. There is something in the brain that says if your feet and legs are warm, you are warm all over. Neither building was "fun" to install (we did the tubing ourselves) but worth it. If propane prices don't relax, I'll be looking at an auxilary fule source to tie into the existing systems.

Ours is also under floor but I have been told if you put the tubing on top it is more efficient, we have a pellet boiler in the basement we use when it gets 25deg works good love floor heat.

 

[ultrarunner]

We own our tank since 1964...

Every couple of years they try to charge rent on our tank and I have to remind them it is OURS.

The problems seem to come everytime there is a management or ownership change.

Last year they simply said it was imposible and I had to pull out the reciept to prove it again.

Maybe I should convert to NG?

 

[teejk]

Ours is also under floor but I have been told if you put the tubing on top it is more efficient, we have a pellet boiler in the basement we use when it gets 25deg works good love floor heat.

+/-'s to above or below. Above floor in gypcrete has a longer response time and you have to double up the bottom plates on the walls to accommodate the tubing and topping to be able to buy standard doors. And you have to be more careful with any nail/screw. The under floor is a PITA to install and requires insulation on the bottom of the floor joists to create the air pocket. Our tubing is suspended 3" below the bottom of the subfloor using "snake hangers" so screws/nails from above are not so critical. And the "below" permits higher boiler temps (I think gypcrete is limited to 120F whereas we can run at 140F). Either way the heat still remains in the envelope of the building so I think that is a push. But radiant is still a much nicer heat than forced air...evenly distributed, quiet, no drafts and reduced airborne dust (you will always get dust moving simply by warm air moving to cold and vice versa).

 

[kenmac]

I don't use propane , but many in my State do. I really wonder it it's a true shortage or someone is just trying to get the prices up. This isn't the 1 st. we've seen cold weather like this... The Governor has issued a state of emergency Bentley declares state of emergency over propane shortage - TimesDaily: State

 

[deerseeker001]

They also declared a state of a emergency here in Wisconsin.

 

[Coyote machine]

New construction radiant heat is easy to run in a track T&G subfloor material, where the tubing gets pounded into the track with a rubber mallet, and done.There is no need for gypcrete, and it can have any flooring material installed on top of the tubes/track. There is no need to create a box of air under old construction joists in existing construction either, BUT one does need to lay the track as a new subfloor under whatever the new floor material will be. It is more expensive to install initially in some instances, but it is quicker to lay out and install in new construction/ some retrofits, etc. which can offset some of the higher initial material cost.
Since radiant heats the entire room's contents vs. just the air it stays more constant and recovers quicker in garages, large rooms etc. than conventional heating like forced air. It is more even than forced air for the same reasons.

 

[PastTense]

Maybe I should convert to NG?

Definitely--if you have natural gas available convert as it will be cheaper than propane.

 

[LD1]

I don't use propane , but many in my State do. I really wonder it it's a true shortage or someone is just trying to get the prices up.

From what I have heard, it isnt so much a shortage as it is a transportation issue. There is pleanty of propane, but a shortage on getting it delivered due to the unusually cold weather we are having in the midwest.

I just checked the website for my propane company. Last week it was ~2.30 something. It is now at 3.75/gal and a note that says they arent taking any new customers and that 150 max for existing customers.

 

[bucktaker]

I wasnt suggesting you buy a tank from them or even clue them in. Mainly just curious as to who you had a bad experience with.

I know alot of people (that I know personally) have had issues with about every major player in my area.

I have never had issues with farmers coop out of marion county. Like I said, no yearly lease fees, no minimum usage, etc. Aside from this time when they filled me up without my requesting....I have nothing bad to say. (but they quickly fixed that issue).

After reading these numerous threads here on TBN about yearly leases, minimums, etc: had me wondering if I by chance owned the tank??? (came with the house). I called them and asked them. They said no, they own it. I asked about how come I never get a bill for a lease, or never any extra charges for not using much. They said they dont do that. After talking to others here on TBN, people said that they could be making it up by charging more, and that most places charge extra for leased tanks per gallon, and that if you owned the tank, the price would be alot less per gallon.

So that had me curious. Last time I filled two years ago, I called them all. Bennett, ferrell, wise, amerigas, etc. And inquired as to the price for a customer owned tank. They were ALL higher than what I could have my leased tank filled for with the exception of one. Dont remember which it was, but it was a whole whopping penny per gallon less.

So IMO, with the company I have, it aint worth owning a tank. They are always the cheapest, no yearly lease fees, no mark-up per gallon for lease customers, and no worrying about the tank. I have a broken gauge. two years ago it had moisture in it to the point it coundnt be read, the guy filling it broke the glass out so it could be read. Well, now it is rusted and the needle kinda sticks. Well, guess what, their tank, they fixed it and I didnt have to pay a dime.

So leasing does have its advantages if you have a good company. That is why I asked if you had a farmers coop down your way?

My supplier is southwest LandMark but now owned by Truepointe lots of changes after Trupointe came into the picture

 

[Tomtint]

New construction radiant heat is easy to run in a track T&G subfloor material, where the tubing gets pounded into the track with a rubber mallet, and done.There is no need for gypcrete, and it can have any flooring material installed on top of the tubes/track. There is no need to create a box of air under old construction joists in existing construction either, BUT one does need to lay the track as a new subfloor under whatever the new floor material will be. It is more expensive to install initially in some instances, but it is quicker to lay out and install in new construction/ some retrofits, etc. which can offset some of the higher initial material cost.
Since radiant heats the entire room's contents vs. just the air it stays more constant and recovers quicker in garages, large rooms etc. than conventional heating like forced air. It is more even than forced air for the same reasons.

We have had a number of different homes over the years. Some heated by oil with baseboard, some propane with FHA another with radiant heat by propane. The oil/baseboard has always been the best bang for the buck. The home we were in with radiant was horrible. When we got days and nights with 30-40* temp fluctuations, the recovery time was horrible. And the propane consumption required to run radiant was painful.

 

[kenmac]

We have had a number of different homes over the years. Some heated by oil with baseboard, some propane with FHA another with radiant heat by propane. The oil/baseboard has always been the best bang for the buck. The home we were in with radiant was horrible. When we got days and nights with 30-40* temp fluctuations, the recovery time was horrible. And the propane consumption required to run radiant was painful.

There was a radiant heat fad here some yrs ago. Very few buyers liked it..... It's long gone now . I have replace a fair amount of the radiant systems

 

[LD1]

My supplier is southwest LandMark but now owned by Truepointe lots of changes after Trupointe came into the picture

Central ohio farmers coop who I have now, used to be Marion county landmark cause the sticker on the tank says that and the phone number, when googled, is now COFC

 

[Larry Caldwell]

From what I have heard, it isnt so much a shortage as it is a transportation issue. There is pleanty of propane, but a shortage on getting it delivered due to the unusually cold weather we are having in the midwest.

I just checked the website for my propane company. Last week it was ~2.30 something. It is now at 3.75/gal and a note that says they arent taking any new customers and that 150 max for existing customers.

If the USA had a decent rail system, there wouldn't be a problem. It's even colder in Canada, but there is no shortage of propane there, because their rail system works.

 

[NoTrespassing]

There was a radiant heat fad here some yrs ago. Very few buyers liked it..... It's long gone now . I have replace a fair amount of the radiant systems

My neighbor has radiant heat/propane boiler in his house he built about 8 years ago. I was over there last night and he's installing an electric heating element in his AC unit in the basement. This was thanks to the propane price tripling here. He was wiring up (2) 60 amp breakers and a 30 amp to it. I'm thinking he'll be able to slice meat with his meter when it's running

 

[ultrarunner]

Just about all the folks I know with radiant heat use oil or wood or a combination...

The beauty of Propane is it doesn't get stale and always ready to use in an instant.

One of the local Hospitals choose propane for the emergency boilers because they can store 21 day supply without fear of it going bad...

Might have to rethink that if prices stay high.

All of my co-workers in Germany are multi-fueled... typically at least 3 ways to heat, not including electricity...

Some of the homes have been in the family for hundreds of years... so the thinking tends to be long term.