PT 1850 Running Hot !

[J_J]

Thanks for those links, Mike.
I talked to a Deutz mechanic about adding a cooler to the engine, but he said an additional cooler on the engine would mess up the oil pressure. I don't think those engines are designed for agricultural / construction use...too much dust, its probably perfect for powering big generators, or boats where thers little to no dust.

I had an engine oil cooler and a hydraulic oil cooler on one of my Zero turn mowers. The engine was a Kohler 25 hp, and it also has a 1 micron and regular oil filter on it. Both systems work great. I wonder if that Deutz mechanic has ever tried a cooler on that engine. I don't see how how it can mess up the oil pressure. It would be on the return leg.

 

[Sedgewood]

Oh... I read the rest of the thread -- there's lots of goodies in there I'd forgotten about. Like this shot of John Coxon (Sedgewood's) screening system;

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37712&d=1114712854

But overheating's only partly due to things getting plugged up, it's also because there isn't enough cooling capacity. JJ's saying that we should put another radiator in the hydraulic system. I think that in addition to that, we need some way to cool the engine itself, since that's really the problem child. That Deutz is air cooled, so we need more heat-sink. I wonder if there's a Deutz engine hacker out there who's figured out a way...

This cooling/chaff problem has to be the biggest design flaw in the Deutz based series.

My screening system works fairly well, but like Mike I still have to clean the engine cooler every couple of hours in really chaffy conditions (I use a water hose with one of those little fire-hose style nozzles that puts out a concentrated 1/8 inch streams). The little stuff still gets through my screening. I've modified my mowing routine to do two cuttings in the early part of the season while the growth is still green. That helps a lot by avoiding the driest chaff. This year I changed out the blue screen on the rear if favor of a screen made of three layers of the black nonwoven fabric stuff sold as a roof ridge vent. I just finished up my second cutting for the year and went about 20 hours with the temp gage hovering right about the 240 degree mark for about the last 10 hours.

I agree with Mike that it's the engine cooler that's the culprit here. The hydraulic cooler seems adequate and the hydraulic temp stays in range between cleanings. It's that darned undersized engine oil cooler. If you look down into the finning you see that it's stamped in a way that catches the small chaff as it passes through. Definitely not designed for chaff.

Be sure your engine oil cooler cleaning is thorough. I've found that a sloppy cleaning is only good for a couple of hours at best. It takes me about 15 minutes with the nozzle, spraying bot down through and up through the cooler repeatedly to get the chaff all out. If you hold a white card under the cooler and look down through the fins you can tell if you really have it clean. I was surprised to find how much effort it takes to get it clean.

Sedgewood

 

[Sedgewood]

JJ,
I'm also considering reversing their fan to pull outside air in, instead of pulling from engine compartment.

No good, sorry to say. Been there. The hydraulics still cool ok but the hot air from the hydraulic cooler then blows right on top of the engine and it overheats even faster.

Sedgewood

 

[J_J]

No good, sorry to say. Been there. The hydraulics still cool ok but the hot air from the hydraulic cooler then blows right on top of the engine and it overheats even faster.

Sedgewood

Do you think it would do any good to add an extra fan, blowing the same direction as the engine fan.just to help remove the heat from the engine.

Does the Deutz engine fan, pull air from the engine, or blow air across the engine.

Has anyone tried to add a water mist in front of the engine. I know, that a more dense air will move or carry more heat. I have seen this done on heat exchangers. I think it would also make the engine run better because the air is more dense. What say you all?

 

[marrt]

Not to be a stickler, but I don’t think this is a Deutz problem…it’s a PT problem. Deutz designed an engine that cools well. PT put it in the rear of the tractor, where the dust conditions are the worst, and didn’t develop any way to mitigate the dust issue. Since both the 1845 and 1850 are designed first and foremost as mowing machines, PT should address the issue.

PT could fabricate a “box” that covers the entire rear area of the engine cover. The box would make contact with the rubber lip on the Deutz fan to form a seal when the engine cover is closed. On the outside of the tractor, a metal filter would be dropped in from the top so it could be easily removed, with no tools, for cleaning. I’ve been thinking of building one out of wood since I have no metal working skills.

In addition to putting a screen over the rear, I found that removing the air deflector from the engine helped. Although this modification allows “engine air” to strike the hydraulic cooler, I don’t think it significantly added to the thermal load on the hydraulic cooler. I would bet that the average temperature of the air exiting the oil cooler is lower than the average temperature of the hydraulic oil, once everything is warmed up. If true, this would actually help with hydraulic cooling. I need to buy one of those fancy laser pointed thermometers and test this theory.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Hey Charlie, can you shoot us a picture of your window-screen modification? I'd forgotten that you're doing the same thing -- I'd like to take a look at your version.


I don't have a picture handy, but it wouldn't be very instructive, anyway. I just cut ordinary insect screen to size and then taped it over every expanded metal part of the hood assembly. Then I cut a round hole for the exhaust and an oblong one for the cooler exit.

I agree that cooling capability is limited, but with the screen I've gotten as much as a two-hour run without clearing the circle of chaff off the back, and six hours without lifting the hood to clear the coolers. Unless it's really dry and clouds of chaff, the machine may be good for more than that, but I'm not

 

[AltavistaLawn]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

 

[J_J]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

Who on earth did you call about oil coolers. The oil coolers that I am talking about run from $30 to $120, depends on the core type. This is very similar to the transmission oil coolers used on millions of cars, to cool the transmission. Like I said before, I had one of them on my 25 hp Kohler, and onother to cool the hydraulic oil. Yor can get all the fans you want at the junk yard.

 

[tracdoc]

I agree with Mike that it's the engine cooler that's the culprit here. The hydraulic cooler seems adequate and the hydraulic temp stays in range between cleanings. It's that darned undersized engine oil cooler. If you look down into the finning you see that it's stamped in a way that catches the small chaff as it passes through. Definitely not designed for chaff.

To paraphrase the popular ad....."I'm not a Deutz engine hacker, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express." That said, I will just toss out some ideas that come from the motorsport world. If the oil cooler on the Deutz is inadequate and poorly placed, could you not consider re-plumbing using a larger capacity cooler of better design than OEM, and placing it forward?? Even if the Deutz OEM cooler is somehow integral with the engine, a bypass re-plumb could most likely be fabbed with off-the-shelf fittings and hoses.

Some good mfrs for coolers would be:

Earls: http://www.holley.com/types/Temp-A-Cure_Oil_Coolers.asp
Mocal: http://www.batinc.net/coolers.htm
PermaCool: http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Contents.html
Specialist Heat Exchangers: http://www.specheat.co.uk/fset_main.htm

Here's an article which has a load of additional sources and resources for AN fittings, S/S braided lines, etc. Scroll down past the pics to the website listings:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fmoc.htm

Sounds like you all could do the work yourselves, but any decent race shop could provide an assist. PermaCool also makes high performance fans for coolers (both oil and hydraulic):
http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page16.html

Summit Racing carries lots of coolers, S/S and ballistic hoses, fittings, fans, and they are top drawer to deal with, not to mention their great prices: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=%2D128262+115&Nao=0#rstop

Based on my own experience in motorsport, and what I'm guestimating the Deutz would require, I don't think we're talking $1,200. A darn good cooler will run under $200. By moving the cooler, the chaff problem would be eliminated or greatly reduced. A larger cooler would exchange more heat and would increase the overall engine oil volume which would also add to the cooling. It would not, imho, cause any problems with oil pressure.

Anyhow, that's just a fresh perspective to bat around. Just don't hit me with the bat, please.

 

[J_J]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

This is the oil cooler that I am talking about.