PT 1850 Running Hot !

[AltavistaLawn]

We do a lot of bush hogging, and usually within 2 hours, the 1850 is overheating.

This seems excessive. Anyone else having heat problems? We're also having many break-downs, I think due to the over heating. It has 250 hours on it.

We started carrying a air tank fitted with a blow gun to clean out the oil cooler, but the hydraulics and engine still seem to run too hot.

Any ideas of how to cool it off?

Thanks,
-Billy

 

[J_J]

We do a lot of bush hogging, and usually within 2 hours, the 1850 is overheating.

This seems excessive. Anyone else having heat problems? We're also having many break-downs, I think due to the over heating. It has 250 hours on it.

We started carrying a air tank fitted with a blow gun to clean out the oil cooler, but the hydraulics and engine still seem to run too hot.

Any ideas of how to cool it off?

Thanks,
-Billy

Billy,
A second hydraulic radiator with fan could be added to the hydraulic circuit.
You might also take some temp readings in the hydraulic tank, and keep some records of which implement might be causing the rise in temp.. On my Kubota, they use a removable screen in front of the radiator to capture the chaff , and I just pull it out and shake often. An air bowser is a good thing to have while you are out working, to blow the dust, chaff and stuff off every now and then.

The radiator and fan should not cost more than $100.

 

[MikeOConnor]

The "start the day" routine for me and my 1850 is to use the air-hose to clean both the oil radiator AND the air-cooling fins in the engine. About every 10 hours I give the air-cleaner a squirt too.

I've attached a couple photos to show you those engine air-cooling fins. Pay no attention to all the tools up on top -- they're not standard equipment, unless you're rebuilding your accumulator pump like I am.

My experience is that on a cool day, I can go all day without overheating. But on a hot day (80+) in the season when the dreaded Little Fluffy Seeds are flying about, I'm only good for a couple hours. Then, out comes the 13mm wrench (yep, gotta have metric AND US wrenches to work on your German-engined, American-made 1850), off comes the cover plate and lots and lots of crud comes off of those fins. I got me one of those right-angled air-squirting heads so i could get in between the top of the fins and the cover that sits above them. It's really hard to get in there with a straight head. If you haven't been cleaning those, I bet that'll help.

I keep thinking I'm going to put window screen over the whole engine cover to see if I can cut down the LFS, but I haven't gotten a round tuit.

If you have, you may be coming to the same realization that I am. I'm finding that the 1850 is great for smaller mowing projects, especially on hills. But when I've got a LOT of field mowing to do, I like my Kubota 6800 a lot better. My 1850's been down for a couple weeks while I get that pesky pump rebuilt. So I fired up the 'Bota and in one day ripped through 38 acres of mowing in glorious air-conditioned comfort. Even the 'Bota needs to have the dreaded Little Fluffy Seeds cleaned out, but he can go all day before he needs it where the 1850 is a lot more finicky.

Remember, these tractors are really mining machines that have been repurposed as tractors for nut-cases like us. I think they're great, but they aren't as robust as a machine that's designed to bash along outside all day long.

 

[AltavistaLawn]

JJ,
Thanks. I was thinking about that too. A tranny cooler would work and I could plumb in a tranny temp. gauge. I'm also considering reversing their fan to pull outside air in, instead of pulling from engine compartment.

The bush hog seems to be the one that causes problems.

I'll probably paint the hood white too, that should help a little.

 

[AltavistaLawn]

The "start the day" routine for me and my 1850 is to use the air-hose to clean both the oil radiator AND the air-cooling fins in the engine. About every 10 hours I give the air-cleaner a squirt too.

I've attached a couple photos to show you those engine air-cooling fins. Pay no attention to all the tools up on top -- they're not standard equipment, unless you're rebuilding your accumulator pump like I am.

My experience is that on a cool day, I can go all day without overheating. But on a hot day (80+) in the season when the dreaded Little Fluffy Seeds are flying about, I'm only good for a couple hours. Then, out comes the 13mm wrench (yep, gotta have metric AND US wrenches to work on your German-engined, American-made 1850), off comes the cover plate and lots and lots of crud comes off of those fins. If you haven't been cleaning those, I bet that'll help.

If you have, you may be coming to the same realization that I am. I'm finding that the 1850 is great for smaller mowing projects, especially on hills. But when I've got a LOT of field mowing to do, I like my Kubota 6800 a lot better. My 1850's been down for a couple weeks while I get that pesky pump rebuilt. So I fired up the 'Bota and in one day ripped through 38 acres of mowing in glorious air-conditioned comfort. Even the 'Bota needs to have the dreaded Little Fluffy Seeds cleaned out, but he can go all day before he needs it where the 1850 is a lot more finicky.

Remember, these tractors are really mining machines that have been repurposed as tractors for nut-cases like us. I think they're great, but they aren't as robust as a machine that's designed to bash along outside all day long.

Mike, I couldn't agree more. I bush hogged today with my JD 4115, with 4' bush hog....seemed like slow motion!

I wish I had the money to get a bigger tractor for all the flats, and slight slopes....maybe dual rears and a cab and AC.

BTW,
I'm stuck using the 4115, 'cause the starter is fried after 250 hours on the PT. And th temp gauge quit working.

 

[J_J]

Mike, In your bio, I saw that you have a tree shear. What kind of tree shear do you have, and do you have any pictures?

 

[AltavistaLawn]

Also,
I'm getting ready to switch out the bolts on those covers with wing nuts....we have to pull it down soo often.

It just doesn't seem to have enough cooling. I know the JD will only overheat when u really neglect the rad. cooling screen, and it gets clogged up.

With just a little dust, the 1850 pegs 300 degrees!

 

[J_J]

Billy, Perhaps you could run the return line from the PTO through the second cooler. I have even seen two coolers stacked with one fan pulling. The fans are DC, and therefore can be reversed. The efficiency will be better in one direction than the other, depends on the shape of the shroud.

 

[MikeOConnor]

Well, to answer your first question, I don't think your experience is unusual. On a hot day, 2 hours is about what I expect to get out of the machine. It doesn't peg 300, but once it starts to lift off of 240 I head for the barn 'cause it won't be long before it's heading seriously north.

I started a thread about engine temp a while back and Charlie Iliff is the guy that educated me about cleaning the fins. here's the thread;

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55755&highlight=overheating

and here's Charlies' post

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=627463&postcount=3

Hey Charlie, can you shoot us a picture of your window-screen modification? I'd forgotten that you're doing the same thing -- I'd like to take a look at your version.

Oh... I read the rest of the thread -- there's lots of goodies in there I'd forgotten about. Like this shot of John Coxon (Sedgewood's) screening system;

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37712&d=1114712854

But overheating's only partly due to things getting plugged up, it's also because there isn't enough cooling capacity. JJ's saying that we should put another radiator in the hydraulic system. I think that in addition to that, we need some way to cool the engine itself, since that's really the problem child. That Deutz is air cooled, so we need more heat-sink. I wonder if there's a Deutz engine hacker out there who's figured out a way...

 

[AltavistaLawn]

...........
But overheating's only partly due to things getting plugged up, it's also because there isn't enough cooling capacity. JJ's saying that we should put another radiator in the hydraulic system. I think that in addition to that, we need some way to cool the engine itself, since that's really the problem child. That Deutz is air cooled, so we need more heat-sink. I wonder if there's a Deutz engine hacker out there who's figured out a way...

Thanks for those links, Mike.
I talked to a Deutz mechanic about adding a cooler to the engine, but he said an additional cooler on the engine would mess up the oil pressure. I don't think those engines are designed for agricultural / construction use...too much dust, its probably perfect for powering big generators, or boats where thers little to no dust.

 

[J_J]

Thanks for those links, Mike.
I talked to a Deutz mechanic about adding a cooler to the engine, but he said an additional cooler on the engine would mess up the oil pressure. I don't think those engines are designed for agricultural / construction use...too much dust, its probably perfect for powering big generators, or boats where thers little to no dust.

I had an engine oil cooler and a hydraulic oil cooler on one of my Zero turn mowers. The engine was a Kohler 25 hp, and it also has a 1 micron and regular oil filter on it. Both systems work great. I wonder if that Deutz mechanic has ever tried a cooler on that engine. I don't see how how it can mess up the oil pressure. It would be on the return leg.

 

[Sedgewood]

Oh... I read the rest of the thread -- there's lots of goodies in there I'd forgotten about. Like this shot of John Coxon (Sedgewood's) screening system;

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=37712&d=1114712854

But overheating's only partly due to things getting plugged up, it's also because there isn't enough cooling capacity. JJ's saying that we should put another radiator in the hydraulic system. I think that in addition to that, we need some way to cool the engine itself, since that's really the problem child. That Deutz is air cooled, so we need more heat-sink. I wonder if there's a Deutz engine hacker out there who's figured out a way...

This cooling/chaff problem has to be the biggest design flaw in the Deutz based series.

My screening system works fairly well, but like Mike I still have to clean the engine cooler every couple of hours in really chaffy conditions (I use a water hose with one of those little fire-hose style nozzles that puts out a concentrated 1/8 inch streams). The little stuff still gets through my screening. I've modified my mowing routine to do two cuttings in the early part of the season while the growth is still green. That helps a lot by avoiding the driest chaff. This year I changed out the blue screen on the rear if favor of a screen made of three layers of the black nonwoven fabric stuff sold as a roof ridge vent. I just finished up my second cutting for the year and went about 20 hours with the temp gage hovering right about the 240 degree mark for about the last 10 hours.

I agree with Mike that it's the engine cooler that's the culprit here. The hydraulic cooler seems adequate and the hydraulic temp stays in range between cleanings. It's that darned undersized engine oil cooler. If you look down into the finning you see that it's stamped in a way that catches the small chaff as it passes through. Definitely not designed for chaff.

Be sure your engine oil cooler cleaning is thorough. I've found that a sloppy cleaning is only good for a couple of hours at best. It takes me about 15 minutes with the nozzle, spraying bot down through and up through the cooler repeatedly to get the chaff all out. If you hold a white card under the cooler and look down through the fins you can tell if you really have it clean. I was surprised to find how much effort it takes to get it clean.

Sedgewood

 

[Sedgewood]

JJ,
I'm also considering reversing their fan to pull outside air in, instead of pulling from engine compartment.

No good, sorry to say. Been there. The hydraulics still cool ok but the hot air from the hydraulic cooler then blows right on top of the engine and it overheats even faster.

Sedgewood

 

[J_J]

No good, sorry to say. Been there. The hydraulics still cool ok but the hot air from the hydraulic cooler then blows right on top of the engine and it overheats even faster.

Sedgewood

Do you think it would do any good to add an extra fan, blowing the same direction as the engine fan.just to help remove the heat from the engine.

Does the Deutz engine fan, pull air from the engine, or blow air across the engine.

Has anyone tried to add a water mist in front of the engine. I know, that a more dense air will move or carry more heat. I have seen this done on heat exchangers. I think it would also make the engine run better because the air is more dense. What say you all?

 

[marrt]

Not to be a stickler, but I don’t think this is a Deutz problem…it’s a PT problem. Deutz designed an engine that cools well. PT put it in the rear of the tractor, where the dust conditions are the worst, and didn’t develop any way to mitigate the dust issue. Since both the 1845 and 1850 are designed first and foremost as mowing machines, PT should address the issue.

PT could fabricate a “box” that covers the entire rear area of the engine cover. The box would make contact with the rubber lip on the Deutz fan to form a seal when the engine cover is closed. On the outside of the tractor, a metal filter would be dropped in from the top so it could be easily removed, with no tools, for cleaning. I’ve been thinking of building one out of wood since I have no metal working skills.

In addition to putting a screen over the rear, I found that removing the air deflector from the engine helped. Although this modification allows “engine air” to strike the hydraulic cooler, I don’t think it significantly added to the thermal load on the hydraulic cooler. I would bet that the average temperature of the air exiting the oil cooler is lower than the average temperature of the hydraulic oil, once everything is warmed up. If true, this would actually help with hydraulic cooling. I need to buy one of those fancy laser pointed thermometers and test this theory.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Hey Charlie, can you shoot us a picture of your window-screen modification? I'd forgotten that you're doing the same thing -- I'd like to take a look at your version.


I don't have a picture handy, but it wouldn't be very instructive, anyway. I just cut ordinary insect screen to size and then taped it over every expanded metal part of the hood assembly. Then I cut a round hole for the exhaust and an oblong one for the cooler exit.

I agree that cooling capability is limited, but with the screen I've gotten as much as a two-hour run without clearing the circle of chaff off the back, and six hours without lifting the hood to clear the coolers. Unless it's really dry and clouds of chaff, the machine may be good for more than that, but I'm not

 

[AltavistaLawn]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

 

[J_J]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

Who on earth did you call about oil coolers. The oil coolers that I am talking about run from $30 to $120, depends on the core type. This is very similar to the transmission oil coolers used on millions of cars, to cool the transmission. Like I said before, I had one of them on my 25 hp Kohler, and onother to cool the hydraulic oil. Yor can get all the fans you want at the junk yard.

 

[tracdoc]

I agree with Mike that it's the engine cooler that's the culprit here. The hydraulic cooler seems adequate and the hydraulic temp stays in range between cleanings. It's that darned undersized engine oil cooler. If you look down into the finning you see that it's stamped in a way that catches the small chaff as it passes through. Definitely not designed for chaff.

To paraphrase the popular ad....."I'm not a Deutz engine hacker, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express." That said, I will just toss out some ideas that come from the motorsport world. If the oil cooler on the Deutz is inadequate and poorly placed, could you not consider re-plumbing using a larger capacity cooler of better design than OEM, and placing it forward?? Even if the Deutz OEM cooler is somehow integral with the engine, a bypass re-plumb could most likely be fabbed with off-the-shelf fittings and hoses.

Some good mfrs for coolers would be:

Earls: http://www.holley.com/types/Temp-A-Cure_Oil_Coolers.asp
Mocal: http://www.batinc.net/coolers.htm
PermaCool: http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Contents.html
Specialist Heat Exchangers: http://www.specheat.co.uk/fset_main.htm

Here's an article which has a load of additional sources and resources for AN fittings, S/S braided lines, etc. Scroll down past the pics to the website listings:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fmoc.htm

Sounds like you all could do the work yourselves, but any decent race shop could provide an assist. PermaCool also makes high performance fans for coolers (both oil and hydraulic):
http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page16.html

Summit Racing carries lots of coolers, S/S and ballistic hoses, fittings, fans, and they are top drawer to deal with, not to mention their great prices: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=%2D128262+115&Nao=0#rstop

Based on my own experience in motorsport, and what I'm guestimating the Deutz would require, I don't think we're talking $1,200. A darn good cooler will run under $200. By moving the cooler, the chaff problem would be eliminated or greatly reduced. A larger cooler would exchange more heat and would increase the overall engine oil volume which would also add to the cooling. It would not, imho, cause any problems with oil pressure.

Anyhow, that's just a fresh perspective to bat around. Just don't hit me with the bat, please.

 

[J_J]

Thanks everyone. I called today and priced a hyd. oil cooler....
$1200.00 !!!!

So I'm not going that route. Next theory is to move the cooler outside on top of the hood, and frame it in for protection.


Wonder if theres anyway we can contact a Deutz engineer.

This problem needs fixin!

This is the oil cooler that I am talking about.