Generator PTO Generator

[JB4310]

As far as timing the meter, anytime you start using letters in math equations, like in that wykpedia account, it's time for someone to bring me home!

After looking at that formula again I figured it's not that complex even for me, so I went out to look at my meter and discovered it's digital, no wheel, Came with the service upgrade I had done 5 years ago. Does that make it easier or harder to use the meter to figure actual real time draw?
JB.

 

[gemini5362]

A lot of posters on here talk about having an emergency generator just for emergencies. I agree they are on the right track. Where I live we have Ice Storms that break lines and cause havoc. Longest I have been without power is 8 days usually average is two or three max. I dont need to wash clothes during that time period if I do I can go to a laundromat or one of my kids house that lives in town ( I have bought the washer and dryer for them I should get to use it) My generator can just run my hot water heater by itself If i need it so far I have done the same thing for showers I do for clothes. (one of my kids lives in one of my rent houses any complaints about dad using the facilities gets a lecture and increased rent) I can run my refrigerator and freezer plus some lights off of the generator. Since my generator does not mention in the owners manual that it is computer power grade I dont use the tv or computers ( I have a lot of books I have not read yet.) I have a wood stove that can heat up the living room and several other rooms so I can keep warm. I luckly am on city water so I have running water. For an emergency I can get by. I like the gas powered generator because I can use it other places and not have to drag along my tractor to do that. To me the real question is whether or not the OP wants to be able to run his whole house or just be able to survive until power becomes available again. I figure the 13 hp gas generator I have is going to be cheaper to operate than running my 49 hp diesel tractor at almost maximum RPS's in order to get 540 pto rpm. Plus my generator has a kickdown that when their is not any power draw it kicks down to an idle. then kicks back up as current needs increase.

 

[Soundguy]

will a 16/15k pto generator be enough to power my house. Average size ranch house, propane furnace and water heater, electric stove and oven. would I be able to run multiple items. almost all of the lights are compact flourescent. This is what I am looking at

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Just add your wattages up.... 15kw runs a whole lot of household appliances... I have a 12kw, and it runs all but the large air handler / compressor.. I'm betting I could actually get them running by getting one started and then getting the other going.. etc.. but have never felt the need to have ac during emerency power outtages so far!

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

If it takes you 45 minutes to hook up a pto generator, maybe you should buy some Red Bull or Monster. Good grief, Charley Brown, how long does it take you to put your shoes and underwear on ?????

Park the dang thing in a dog house behind the meter, back the tractor up, hitch the shaft, run the cable, throw the mains, and turn on the TV.

If getting the old Lady's help or permission to do the work is holding you back, move out...

I also wondered about that.. but then i know guys that take 30 minutes to hitch up a box blade or mower.. Heck.. i can be 2.5 ac nto a 10ac mow job by the time 30 minutes goes by!

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

You guys all want to avoid the obvious question because you want to see something spinning on the PTO. You got money burning a hole in your pocket.

If the power is out... you may need your tractor for other things.

Jake

And while using the tractor for those other things.. does the tv and lamps need to be on?? no.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

The web site says 21, the handout (pdf) says 22 and I have heard from the Mahindra forum that they are under rated. I doubt that I would use the full load and even if I did, That's a good excuse to buy a bigger tractor.

With an oversized genny... you won't have to worry about thermal overloads.. it's not a bad matchup really.. and if you do ever get a bigger tractor.. you are set.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

One word of caution reguarding the harbor freight and most other cheap geneartors. Most use capacitor voltage regulation which is not a good way to stabilize current. AVR regulation is much better, but more expensive. Electronics are very sensitive to dirty power, which is what you get from a cheap generator. Before running one of these I'd run around and unplug all computers, tv, etc... last thing you want to do is burn up the $3,000 flat screen because you bought a cheap generator.

Unfortunatly.. lots of myth here.. and not as much fact.

Reality is.. that -MANY- common electronics with switching based power supplies ( triacs ) are EXTREMLY fault tolerant when dealing with over/under frequency and voltage.

the average cheapy computer power supply with run +/- 10hz and not brown until under 90vac.. that's a huge operting range. Compute rmonitors and many new tv's set their own operating scan frequencies with a bult in oscilator and do not rely on line cycles for raster sync.

all yer toaster and heating element and simple motorized stuff like can-openers won't feel a thing.

About the only thing I wouldn't run with fairly clean line is a microwave.. and that's mostly an efficiency / wattage issue with rspect to curent usage as line voltage drops.

Wall warts that are transformer equipped won't be as effected by dirty power due to mssive inductance.. plus the new breeds of wll warts are all switchers and run 90-250vac natively.. it's al window timing issue on the triacs triggering for onstate.. etc.

old mechanical clocks will keep incorrect time.

Just because a unit does not hve an active vreg.. doesn't men it's a lightning storm on the output.. invest in a graphing o-scope with storge capabilities and run a comparison with history on your utility line throughout the day... I think you will be amazed what your utility sells you as power.. depending on the motor loads in yor house.. and the age of those appliances.. and where on the line you are in your grid.. you can get some pretty scarry stuff.. like 130v line voltages.. and up to 2hz excursions.

I did a similar test on my 12 kw northern genny using a variety of electronic, inductive and motor loads as well as incandescent and heating element loads.. best i could get was a 1hz drop tht corrected so fast the meter only graphed it on one cycle.. I was testing with up to 10kw loads.. voltage output stayed in a +/-2v range... IE.. much cleaner than anything florid power was selling me at the time of the test..

for all interested.. do your own tests... local power distribution systems will vary based on age and equipment used.. and load management of your provider.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

That is an interesting idea. Never thought of that one, I will have to try it. The wheel is graduated and along with a watch, you should be able to time it's rate of turn for a fixed ammount of time and get something that can be multiplied into the load in KW/HR at that particular load. This of course won't show surge loads very well, but you should be able to get a reasonably accurate average. Your electric bill should also help in getting an average use reading.

just get your elec co to install a neato digital readout meter that will just tell you power conumption straight out.

soundguy

 

[zzvyb6]

Here's 50kw with 35hp diesel tractor. It would take 100+ hp to be maxed out, but I even do air conditioning. The best part of this setup is the ability to travel to the neighbors to give them heat and a few flushes. Believe it or not, highest need for tractor genset is summer when the horses are thirsty and the trees have dropped a LOT of power lines from high winds or worse. Winter is cruel, but summer is nasty without water for the critters.

 

[Soundguy]

I've heard of the same horror stories. A frined is a gc.. he bult a storm room in the middle of his house, and had a huge sandby system put in ( generac ).. it failed to come onwhen needed.. this was in the bad florida storms of 04.. he paid huge money for all of that..


I couldn't help but think about that whle watching storm coverge on my tv powered by my 1000$ 12kw genny hooked to one of my antiques parked out beside the house purring away.

now that's my idea of a standby system.. when needed pull the tractor and gen around and run the wires and go...

soundguy

I agree, it's all about power management. unless you really don't want to know, and spend well over $20,000. for a auto stand by system that a Doctor I recently worked for had installed, and guess what the first time the power went out it didn't kick in, when he called them they told him to go down the basement and push the reset button on the refrigerator sized control box!

The hourly average over a months time is just that, average, and worthless for calculating what size gen you would need. as it's taking into account the over night periods when nothing is on.
If you really wanted to run everything at once with a gen then you need to know peek demand and you'd have to do like you said and turn every possible load on for some set period of time and do the math using the numbers off the meter.
I think it would be easier to walk thru the house and add up all the possible loads, it would be tricky figuring those 3X start surges of motors using the meter method, I would think.
JB.

 

[Soundguy]

I figure the 13 hp gas generator I have is going to be cheaper to operate than running my 49 hp diesel tractor at almost maximum RPS's in order to get 540 pto rpm. Plus my generator has a kickdown that when their is not any power draw it kicks down to an idle. then kicks back up as current needs increase.

Hmm.. I wouldn't automatially ssume that a lawnmower engine is going to be superior in fuel economy to a nice diesel tractor.. remember.. rpm of your tractor is not what uses fuel.. it's hp used.. p used will be determined by electrical load.. that load, in an equal comparison to the 13hp gasser nd the diesel.. just because yor engine is rated at 49 hp does not mean you are making it if.. say.. it only needs 13 hp... that means your fuel usage should pretty closely track hp usage.

I know my 12hp rider lawnmower DRINKS gas compaired to my larger diesel tractors looking at work done.. ie. amount of grass cut. 5g of diesel cuts 10ac of pasture for me... that rider cutting those 10ac will suck down a whole lot more than 5g of gas!!.. I've never been able to get more than an hour of runtime out of a gallon of gas on that rider... and it'l take a whole lota hours to cut 10ac .. so you can see where that fuel savings theory just went! Fuel used pretty closely tracks work done on n average diesel... that same 5g of fuel oil runs my 95hp/15' mower for 2 hours.. or the 70hp/10' mower for about 3 hrs... both eilding a 10ac cut.... I've used the 95hp tractor on the 10' mower used the same fuel and ran the same amount of time as the 70hp tractor..

soundguy

 

[JB4310]

remember.. rpm of your tractor is not what uses fuel.. it's hp used.. p used will be determined by electrical load.. .. just because yor engine is rated at 49 hp does not mean you are making it if.. say.. it only needs 13 hp... that means your fuel usage should pretty closely track hp usa
so you can see where that fuel savings theory just went! Fuel used pretty closely tracks work done on n average diesel....

soundguy

I guess that's what most people including myself have trouble wrapping their head around, and the reason every newbie (including myself) with a pto gen wants to know how they can slow down their engines with some kind of pto gear box.
Still, wish I had the 2 speed pto so I could at least try it on lite loads.
JB.

 

[Egon]

Hmm.. I wouldn't automatially ssume that a lawnmower engine is going to be superior in fuel economy to a nice diesel tractor.. remember.. rpm of your tractor is not what uses fuel.. it's hp used.. p used will be determined by electrical load.. that load, in an equal comparison to the 13hp gasser nd the diesel.. just because yor engine is rated at 49 hp does not mean you are making it if.. say.. it only needs 13 hp... that means your fuel usage should pretty closely track hp usage.

Sure wish my truck had heard of that philosophy on fuel usage!

It has gotten 14 MPG moving a 24000 pound load over some distance. Now using the above philosophy it should achieve almost 50 GPM just moving itself around at the same speed. Sadly that don't happen!

Must be I figured something wrong??

Orr??? is it just that I can't use that type of comparison because it don't abide by the philosophy??

 

[Northland]

I think you will be amazed what your utility sells you as power.. depending on the motor loads in yor house.. and the age of those appliances.. and where on the line you are in your grid.. you can get some pretty scarry stuff.. like 130v line voltages.. and up to 2hz excursions.
soundguy

You got that right SoundGuy! I am near the end of the line in a very rural area and I lost several electronic devices due to surges before I put everything on surge supressors.

Lots of sensible responses from you to other posts as well

 

[SPYDERLK]

Lotsa sense on the thread lately. A few thoughts:
1] Lawnmowers chop grass finer than tractor implements. This accounts for some of the apparent inefficiency when comparing.

2] Using the 1000rpm PTO to run a 540 gen is a setup that requires very close engine speed control. Approx twice as close to get equal frequency stability because engine speed changes have 2x, ie 1000/540, effect on gen speed due to the pto gearing. Worse, this high control accuracy is required at low engine rpm. It takes a very special governor to hold well across the load range. This setup would work fine on steady state loads tho.

3] Most gens do not have high surge capacity because the manufacturer pushes the nameplate rating up to near the max capacity of the windings and field metal and just provides the cooling to keep things happy. Usually only about 15% is available above this for a surge rating. Beyond this the voltage output drops quickly even if generator speed is maintained.

4] ~6.5 : 1 gearboxes [3600/540] are pretty inefficient. Much nicer to have an 1800 rpm gen -- or else one designed for 1000PTO.
larry

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Unfortunatly.. lots of myth here.. and not as much fact.

Reality is.. that -MANY- common electronics with switching based power supplies ( triacs ) are EXTREMLY fault tolerant when dealing with over/under frequency and voltage.

Two weeks ago we lost a 37" LCD TV becusae we killed the power supply because we overdraw our 400AMP electrical service at work. Our phone system also has a tendencay to wack out when we're doing too much. I've spent thousands on battery backup and AVR equiped battery backup systems to protect servers. In a home things maybe different, but my experience has been very different.

 

[atgreene]

I guess that's what most people including myself have trouble wrapping their head around, and the reason every newbie (including myself) with a pto gen wants to know how they can slow down their engines with some kind of pto gear box.
Still, wish I had the 2 speed pto so I could at least try it on lite loads.
JB.

I have a 540 and a 750 setting on my Kubota (50 - hp). When I run my 16 k generator I have found that the 750 setting with the tractor idled back to 540 rpm will not govern itself close enough to work well. I have a hertz meter set-up on the generator and can monitor the load/slow down when things like the furnace kick on. At the 540 setting it works better and the governor keeps it where it needs to be as loads dictate.

As for fuel, my tractor burns less than my 5k gas genny did. I figure less than a gallon of fuel per hour, and have actually found nights where it ran all night with light loads and only used around 1/2 gallon per hour. If I shed some more loads I could probably gain a little beyond that.

 

[Smokin Diesel]

Sure wish my truck had heard of that philosophy on fuel usage!

It has gotten 14 MPG moving a 24000 pound load over some distance. Now using the above philosophy it should achieve almost 50 GPM just moving itself around at the same speed. Sadly that don't happen!

Must be I figured something wrong??

Orr??? is it just that I can't use that type of comparison because it don't abide by the philosophy??

Apples and oranges. Weight has very little to do with MPG once you're rolling (Newton's first law). Air resistance is key, with a touch of friction from the tires. So the HP required from the engine, thus fuel milage, won't change much from empty to loaded.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Apples and oranges. Weight has very little to do with MPG once you're rolling (Newton's first law). Air resistance is key, with a touch of friction from the tires. So the HP required from the engine, thus fuel milage, won't change much from empty to loaded.

So, Now explain why my Chevy Silverado 1500 goes from 15 mpg to 9 mpg when pulling a heavy load.

 

[Smokin Diesel]

So, Now explain why my Chevy Silverado 1500 goes from 15 mpg to 9 mpg when pulling a heavy load.

Sure. You're adding a trailer with a bunch of wind resistance and a handful of tires. Pretty much what I said above.

Think of an over-the-road semi with a dry van trailer. It can double its weight when loaded, and still stay within 10% of its unloaded milage. Or Boneville Salt Flat racers. Those cars are heavy as heck, but very slippery.

Nobody has proven Newton wrong yet.