PTO Generators? IMD vs Winco?

[CalG]

10KW units are similar in price.

Anyone have experience with the IMD? The adverts say "USA".
Mostly I wonder about the gear box ;-)

 

[ponytug]

I have never used an IMD, but I'd pick the AVR over the capacitor based voltage regulation, as it will give better voltage regulation.

Generally speaking, PTO generators aren't as good at regulating frequency as other generators, unless the tractor has a digital ECM to control engine speed.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CalG]

I have very little need for frequency regulation.
50/60 hz

Even the kitchen clock runs off a battery.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[DarkBlack]

You don’t have a well pump or other 60hz AC motor in your house?
Those certainly care about 60hz being under frequency

 

[ponytug]

You don’t have a well pump or other 60hz AC motor in your house?
Those certainly care about 60hz being under frequency

"Close" to 60 should be fine for most motors. Microwaves tend to be a finicky appliance, and some UPS units have trouble outside of 58-62Hz.

@CalG I've run a WINCO PTO generator for a week more or less straight for 18 hours a day. My only tweak was to put the tractor in 1,000rpm PTO, and then drop the engine speed until the PTO was running 540rpm to save fuel as the tractor had a ton of HP, relative to what the generator needed.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CalG]

You don’t have a well pump or other 60hz AC motor in your house?
Those certainly care about 60hz being under frequency

It's been a long time since I've run across an A/C induction motor that didn't read 50/60 hz on the motor plate.

 

[CalG]

"Close" to 60 should be fine for most motors. Microwaves tend to be a finicky appliance, and some UPS units have trouble outside of 58-62Hz.

@CalG I've run a WINCO PTO generator for a week more or less straight for 18 hours a day. My only tweak was to put the tractor in 1,000rpm PTO, and then drop the engine speed until the PTO was running 540rpm to save fuel as the tractor had a ton of HP, relative to what the generator needed.

All the best,

Peter

Yep!

I've got two tractors to choose from that have the high speed pto.
Our domestic needs are small, but the well pump needs must be met.
I'm sure the fuel economy of the .9 liter diesel will be noticeable.

 

[DarkBlack]

It's been a long time since I've run across an A/C induction motor that didn't read 50/60 hz on the motor plate.

You’re confused. Most American market motors are designed for 60hz.
Running a 60hz motor installed to run at 60hz, at 50hz will cause obvious performance issues (20% slow), and if you’re not driving it with a VFD, then it’s going to run too hot and consume excessive current

 

[DarkBlack]

"Close" to 60 should be fine for most motors.

When I first tried running my 3/4 hp deep well pump off my 5k generator, it couldn’t reliably start it. Often just bogged the generator down until a breaker would trip, or I would kick off the breaker.
The generator was factory set at 60hz no load. When I measured, it dropped to 59hz with a moderate load, and 58.5hz when bogged by the stalled deep well pump.
I adjusted the no load to 61hz, no load. During startup there’s a quick drop to 60hz.
Deep well pump starts and runs perfectly now.

Deep well pumps can have enormous starting currents depending on well depth, static water level, and number of check valves

 

[CalG]

I have found modern induction motors to be very tolerant of both voltage and frequency fluctuations.
Most motors in my inventory today, which must be over 16 in number, (though several are 3ph) carry plated ratings for 200-240 volt, 50-60 hz input.

Of course, I'm not going to pull the water pump to assure you of that particular motor plate. But HEY! It's water cooled! I bet it can tolerate a "warm spell" several times per hour.

Just so long as it gets STARTED!

When I first tried running my 3/4 hp deep well pump off my 5k generator, it couldn’t reliably start it. Often just bogged the generator down until a breaker would trip, or I would kick off the breaker.
The generator was factory set at 60hz no load. When I measured, it dropped to 59hz with a moderate load, and 58.5hz when bogged by the stalled deep well pump.
I adjusted the no load to 61hz, no load. During startup there’s a quick drop to 60hz.
Deep well pump starts and runs perfectly now.

Deep well pumps can have enormous starting currents depending on well depth, static water level, and number of check valves

One hz? That is one fussy well pump motor.

 

[Smokeydog]

I have limited expertise with generators. Bought a used 10K Winco. Set up to use a found the OEM voltage gauge to be off. Reading higher than actual voltage. Hertz was low -58. Contacted Winco about problem. Technician said voltage gauge bad, no adjustment. New gauge >$100. Said hertz is as important to monitor as voltage. Opted to add additional gauges, volt, amps for each leg and hertz. Digital gauges are about $8ea and are within 1-2% of my Fluke multimeter.

Also made up a little box to read voltage and hertz indoors by the TV. Amps on the media circuit. Leave it connected with normal power 24/7 and is surprisingly steady.

Test runs once the generator is up and running at proper hertz and then connected to the house, the power is steady even with various loads switching on and off. Steady output even at rated capacity. Got the pto generator to especially run the 240v deep well pump.

 

[ponytug]

I have found modern induction motors to be very tolerant of both voltage and frequency fluctuations.
Most motors in my inventory today, which must be over 16 in number, (though several are 3ph) carry plated ratings for 200-240 volt, 50-60 hz input.

Of course, I'm not going to pull the water pump to assure you of that particular motor plate. But HEY! It's water cooled! I bet it can tolerate a "warm spell" several times per hour.

Just so long as it gets STARTED!

One hz? That is one fussy well pump motor.

If you need to support, or are interested in supporting, three phase, the surplus military generators in the 5 & 10kW are readily switchable from 120VAC to split phase (120/240) to three phase (not while running!). MEP-802A & MEP-803A, respectively. I know a few folks in NE who support them.

I agree that 1Hz would be a very fussy motor, but I would suspect it is the motor controller that is misreading the pump rpm and thinking the pump is stalling or stalled. Franklin controls are known for it.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ponytug]

When I first tried running my 3/4 hp deep well pump off my 5k generator, it couldn’t reliably start it. Often just bogged the generator down until a breaker would trip, or I would kick off the breaker.
The generator was factory set at 60hz no load. When I measured, it dropped to 59hz with a moderate load, and 58.5hz when bogged by the stalled deep well pump.
I adjusted the no load to 61hz, no load. During startup there’s a quick drop to 60hz.
Deep well pump starts and runs perfectly now.

Deep well pumps can have enormous starting currents depending on well depth, static water level, and number of check valves

5kW is really on small side to routinely start a deep well pump due to the large startup current. Others here have posted about how many pumps and generators get replaced because the generator is too small for the starting surge current.

Do you have digital controls on your pump? E.g. a Franklin or an Allen-Bradley?

All the best,

Peter

 

[zzvyb6]

I run my 45kW Winpower off my 22hp (when new) JD F935 lawnmower. All I need is a Kill-O-Watt to show frequency and this establishes throttle position. Sure, the propeller heads will point out that the 22 hp is only good for 11kW. So what? I obviously am requiring less than 11kW to survive. BTW: Why do all the usual replies say "they might need their tractor for other things during an outage" ??? I don't run it full time. Maybe just every few hours as necessary for heat or water or refrigeration. Why do folks think it has to run 24/7 ? Good grief....

BTW: the gearbox I use to convert the 935's 2200 rpm pto to 540 reverses the 540 pto rotation direction. OMG !! This sounds like blasphemy...

 

[DarkBlack]

5kW is really on small side to routinely start a deep well pump due to the large startup current. Others here have posted about how many pumps and generators get replaced because the generator is too small for the starting surge current.

Do you have digital controls on your pump? E.g. a Franklin or an Allen-Bradley?

All the best,

Peter

That pump ended up dying. I ran the calculations on my needs and replaced it with an equivalent pressure, but reduced flow rate 1/2hp pump/motor combo, which still flows more than what I need.
My 5kv generator starts this one no problem. I still stay on the cautious side, and only switch on the well pump during outages when I know the electric stove isn’t in use at the same time. My wife commonly uses multiple burners plus the oven at the same time

 

[ponytug]

That pump ended up dying. I ran the calculations on my needs and replaced it with an equivalent pressure, but reduced flow rate 1/2hp pump/motor combo, which still flows more than what I need.
My 5kv generator starts this one no problem. I still stay on the cautious side, and only switch on the well pump during outages when I know the electric stove isn’t in use at the same time. My wife commonly uses multiple burners plus the oven at the same time

It sounds great that you were able to work out a pump better matched to your generator and still meet your needs.

A couple of burners and the oven on a 5kW generator is pretty darn impressive.

Personally, I find myself conscious of every watt when using a generator. Probably not the best outlook, but it is what it is.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LouNY]

I hadn't heard of IMD generators, looked at their site briefly.
Sounds like a decent generator, I didn't see if they were two pole or four pole generators. I prefer 4 poles although their are people on here that either don't think it makes a difference or that a 2 pole is better.
I don't know what size tractor you are going to be using the generator on, but I would not buy a 10KW generator for a tractor. A 16 or 20 kw doesn't cost much more and the heavier mass will help with surge loads and has the capacity if more power is needed.
Even a small tractor can run a 20kw if only 10 or less is being used.
This place has reasonable priced pto generators and you can get them with either a 3.55 ratio or a 4.5 ratio gearbox requiring either 540 pto rpm or 400 pto rpm for the 60 Hz power.
The 4.5 gearbox option would be nice for people with more then adequate hp for their generator and being able to drop to 1700 or 1800 rpm for power production and save fuel.
25KW Perkins, PTO, Single & Double Bearing Diesel Generator, Generator Heads & PTO Combo Kits - Central Georgia Generator

 

[rumwrks]

Deep well pumps can have enormous starting currents depending on well depth, static water level, and number of check valves

If you're in that situation it might be worth investing in some motor start surge capacitors. That'd smooth out the startup current (not as much as a 3 phase slow start... but it'd help..). It also reduces your power factor which can be helpful if you happen to be on one of the industrial billing setups where your charged for peak load (more commonly important for ag pumps.. or other industrial stuff.. but depending on how your property is setup and your electric service.. it can occasionally be a thing.. albeit almost never for strictly residential).

 

[CalG]

I hadn't heard of IMD generators, looked at their site briefly.
Sounds like a decent generator, I didn't see if they were two pole or four pole generators. I prefer 4 poles although their are people on here that either don't think it makes a difference or that a 2 pole is better.
I don't know what size tractor you are going to be using the generator on, but I would not buy a 10KW generator for a tractor. A 16 or 20 kw doesn't cost much more and the heavier mass will help with surge loads and has the capacity if more power is needed.
Even a small tractor can run a 20kw if only 10 or less is being used.
This place has reasonable priced pto generators and you can get them with either a 3.55 ratio or a 4.5 ratio gearbox requiring either 540 pto rpm or 400 pto rpm for the 60 Hz power.
The 4.5 gearbox option would be nice for people with more then adequate hp for their generator and being able to drop to 1700 or 1800 rpm for power production and save fuel.
25KW Perkins, PTO, Single & Double Bearing Diesel Generator, Generator Heads & PTO Combo Kits - Central Georgia Generator

Thanks for the link!
For myself, I am not in a position to produce the chassis and service panel that would make one of these kits a useful choice.

Yes, I could. But I would likely have more into the unit than makes any sense. With very little resale value should I wish to get out.

That 13kva setup sure looks like a winner!