PTO, way too often is undervalued in a purchase

[DK35vince]

The only way to have PTO completely independent of transmission clutch/pedal look to me is when you have inner and outer shaft, with inner directly splined to crankshaft and outer splined to single clutch. In that scenario when you start not only you rotate the flywheel you also turn coupled shaft. The inner shaft has to have a clutch pack at the differential housing to engage or disengage the PTO shaft. Has anyone seen that?

Yes, Its called Independant PTO. And it is engaged/disengaged by a electric/hydraulic switch. I have that type of system on my Kioti DK 35.

 

[Keith_B]

My NH 2001 TC33 hydro has one clutch. You push it in the Hydro stops and both PTO's will stop spinning (eventually).

That's a tranny PTO. You push in the clutch and it takes both the tranny and PTO out of gear.

 

[Soundguy]

You just described an independent pto.. they have been around for decades...

Soundguy

That's is all I have been saying (repeating myself) along and this is the first confirmation. The only way to have PTO completely independent of transmission clutch/pedal look to me is when you have inner and outer shaft, with inner directly splined to crankshaft and outer splined to single clutch. In that scenario when you start not only you rotate the flywheel you also turn coupled shaft. The inner shaft has to have a clutch pack at the differential housing to engage or disengage the PTO shaft. Has anyone seen that?

 

[Soundguy]

Yikes! a non live pto? Might as well be a ford 640 same hp and non live pto... I think that's the first newish hydro I've heard of with a non live pto..

Of course.. since it is hydro.. you can stop the drivetrain and leave the pto running.. I.E. you don't need the clutch to run the hydro F & R correct?

Soundguy

i got lost in all the varations ....

but hears what i DO know...

My NH 2001 TC33 hydro has one clutch. You push it in the Hydro stops and both PTO's will stop spinning (eventually).

The speed of either PTO's is directly porportional to engine RPM. There is no "range" on the PTO and it will not reverse.

 

[JC-jetro]

You just described an independent pto.. they have been around for decades...

Soundguy

Soundguy,

A bit of my confusion is that the term is used interchangeably between live (dual clutch) and independent from different manufacturer. When I looked at the Deer 5103 clutch anatomy, it does show two clutch at the tranny same as live but the specs call it with independent PTO

I read spec on different tractors where term "independent" is used both with single and also double clutch

Now I do realize that you may use other lever or switches ( may be manual, electric or hydraulically engaged) other than foot pedal to engage the pto. I don't know if term independent is only reserved where engagement of pto is with a mechanism other than a foot clutch.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. Think of it like this. An independent pto differes from other pto types as it can be engaged or disengaged reguardless of what else is going on.

for instance.. i can be driving in my pasture and kick my independent pto on with my heel on my ford 5000 without clutching or stopping or shifting gears.. etc.

On a 2 stage clutch.. you pretty much HAVE to clutch to engage the pto, or to change pto ranges, if you have multiple ranges.

For instance.. on my NH 7610s and my ford 5000.. they each have a single plate clutch. That clutch makes no difference to the pto... in or out.. etc. And they are independent pto.

My stepfather has a JD 2240.. it has a single stage clutch, and an independent pto that is engaged with a small solenoid onthe shifter cover.. pto can be engaged or disengaged at any time.

I have a ford 660 and did have a ford/nh 1920.. thaey have/had a dual stage clutch and live pto.. you have to clutch to engage the pto.

You may hear the term 'live' independent pto.

Some other older implementations of live pto used an axle clutch, or other type of clutch like a 2nd hand clutch along with the non live single foot clutch. Therefore, you could handclutch the drivetrain and leave the pto running.. giving you a psuedo live pto. You still had to use the foot clutch to engage / disengage the pto. Some old fords were outfitted with these, and I believe some largeer old AC's had this fot/hand clutch arangement to get live pto.

Soundguy

 

[JC-jetro]

Hmm.. Think of it like this. An independent pto differes from other pto types as it can be engaged or disengaged reguardless of what else is going on.

Soundguy

Thanks for the reply soundguy,

I stopped at John Deere dealer ship and talked with on one the older mechanic and also at the kubota dealer ship. I'm amazed how little some of sales people know of the equipment they sell. Any how the older Deere mechanic was quite a sage character and we hit it well when It came to pto and tractor design. He kind of corroborated with me that whether you have live or independent PTO the power is transmitted to PTO and transmission by a double shaft assembly, one solid and the other one hollow with solid being inside the hollow shaft. PTO shaft is splined to flywheel directly in case of hydraulic activated ( in case of mechanical independent than it is splined to PTO clutch plate) and the second shaft is splined to transmission clutch plate. In the case of hydraulic activated PTO there is a clutch pack in the rear of the transmission. The pack is engaged or disengaged by action of hydraulic pressure and he called that " genuine Independent PTO"

In other pseudo independent same as JD 5103 that uses a double clutch system. They don't call it live because pto clutch has a Handle that you can engage and feather the clutch in by hand rather than foot pedal action. In 5103 you can push the foot pedal all the way and it does not kill the pto because it simply can not push the double clutch more than half way.

do you buy that?

Kubota guy also agreed with the concept above after a bit of arm twisting

 

[Soundguy]

I don't have a 5103. but.. it sounds like he is telling you that it has a dual stage clutch, plus a seterate hand clutch on the pto, and that they block out the disengagement of the 2nd stage foot clutch at the pedal linkage, and tell you to merely use the hand clutch to engage the pto? Well.. Uh.. that, technically would work... seems like alot of extra parts though.

It is common to have a linkage or setup so that you can prevent disengaging the 2nd stage of a clutch.. usually it is a flip down 'stop'.. that way you can disengage drive train by stomping the clutch, but not worry about going too far and stopping the pto..

Soundguy

 

[JC-jetro]

I don't have a 5103. but.. it sounds like he is telling you that it has a dual stage clutch, plus a seterate hand clutch on the pto, and that they block out the disengagement of the 2nd stage foot clutch at the pedal linkage, and tell you to merely use the hand clutch to engage the pto? Well.. Uh.. that, technically would work... seems like alot of extra parts though.

Soundguy

Thats right. In his opinion the only "honest to god and genuine " independent PTO is the one hydraulically activated along with single foot clutch plate for transmission. Also he believed any dual clutch live pto that has a separate hand clutch is " an independent PTO wanna be" and really is jazzed up live PTO.

I can see his argument and see he has got a point.

Now my 2 cents, I think for average " do it yourself" kind of guy dual clutch live PTO is easier to replace and repair buy splitting the tractor. It seems the clutch pack on Hyd independent also requires splitting the tractor per Kubota guy. I would think replacing clutch pack without tractor split takes my vote. One problem I see with hyd independent is the clutch pack is squeezed together with hyd oil pressure thru a solenoid valve that is made by a dash mounted switch. I think if you can not squeeze the clutch plate tight enough because of hyd problem then you run the risk of wearing out the disk material prematurely without even getting much physical feed back and when you realize it probably it is too late. you've done did it and pto clutch is gone.


I am thinking if functionality of live PTO and longevity ,and simplicity of tractor is prime concern then a live PTO should win over Hyd independent PTO. Any though on my last statement?

 

[DK35vince]

One problem I see with hyd independent is the clutch pack is squeezed together with hyd oil pressure thru a solenoid valve that is made by a dash mounted switch. I think if you can not squeeze the clutch plate tight enough because of hyd problem then you run the risk of wearing out the disk material prematurely without even getting much physical feed back and when you realize it probably it is too late. you've done did it and pto clutch is gone.

Hydraulic pressure squeezes the clutch pack plenty tight so I don't forsee that as ever being a problem.
The biggest issue I see with this system is the PTO slams on so hard when engaged on many (or most) machines with this setup.