Pump/water issues

[ponytug]

I would love some advice:

Over the last year or so, our water seems to have had more iron in it. I put it down to a potentially changing aquifer, or variation in the water softener's performance. However, I worry something else may be going on.

Our main well pump is a 5 HP, 3 phase submersible, about 175' down that pumps up to a sand filter, and then up 120' vertically to storage tanks, which feed the house and ranch.

In the course of working out whether the three phase pump was wired correctly, I noticed two things. One the water coming into the storage tanks was noticeably turbid and rust tinged. Historically, it has been clear entering the storage tanks. Second, as soon as the pump shuts off, the pressure at the well head, before the sand filter, drops to zero.

My hazy recollection is that the well head used to maintain pressure, I assume from a check valve at the pump. Is that the expected behavior? Is it a sign of a failing pump? Or just a failing memory and it is normally this way?

Second, how long do sand filters last, and what does a failure look like? The filter still backwashes on its timed cycle. Could it need new media? Should I replace the whole filter due to age? (15-30 years old, it predates our ownership)

Or is the turbid water a sign of a failing well?

Any ideas on what might going on are most welcome. I hate to phone the well pump crews with something vague like "hey folks, she ain't doing right..." Pulling the well pump is almost certainly a pump replacement, as the existing pump is 15-30 years old. (No sense in putting a pump that old back down the well. Right?)

All the best,

Peter

 

[plowhog]

In the course of working out whether the three phase pump was wired correctly, I noticed two things. One the water coming into the storage tanks was noticeably turbid and rust tinged. Historically, it has been clear entering the storage tanks. Second, as soon as the pump shuts off, the pressure at the well head, before the sand filter, drops to zero.

Have any other wells been drilled nearby and recently? I've had that change things ... including increased sediment in my well.

I don't know about minerals, etc., but the pressure seems odd. Do you have a bladder expansion tank? If so have you checked the a) air pressure, and b) weight of it?

Wells vary a lot. But a common configuration is the motor/pump is set to cut-in at 40psi and cut-out at 60psi. And the bladder tank should reduce the number of pump cycles between those values.

And, why would you "check" the pump wiring? Did something trigger that?

 

[PILOON]

Pressure dropping to 0 suggests the pump foot valve is leaking, that or a fitting some where in line. Generally that would have the pump cycling a lot and is not good.
(I always added a check valve just B4 my pressure controls, beats pulling the pump)

Now if your pump is cycling a lot and dumping the 175 ft of water back into your well the reserve, now agitated water, will naturally be full of suspended sediment and particles.

Might be one explanation.

Adding an inline check valve directly B4 your pressure control as I described might be a very cheap form of insurance (repair in your case) and prolong the life of your pump.
And if U do so, change the pressure switch as well, both are reasonably priced items and pressure switches don't have an infinite life, (contacts get pitted).

 

[ponytug]

Pressure dropping to 0 suggests the pump foot valve is leaking, that or a fitting some where in line. Generally that would have the pump cycling a lot and is not good.
(I always added a check valve just B4 my pressure controls, beats pulling the pump)

Now if your pump is cycling a lot and dumping the 175 ft of water back into your well the reserve, now agitated water, will naturally be full of suspended sediment and particles.

Might be one explanation.

Adding an inline check valve directly B4 your pressure control as I described might be a very cheap form of insurance (repair in your case) and prolong the life of your pump.
And if U do so, change the pressure switch as well, both are reasonably priced items and pressure switches don't have an infinite life, (contacts get pitted).

I thought that there might be a second check valve, aka foot valve at the submersible pump. One of my concerns was that it had failed, and therefore the pump was also close to failing.

There is an in-line check valve about two feet beyond the well head, so the water that drops back in the well is about 28 gallons of water. It could definitely stir up some sediment. I just would have expected that 100 gallons later it would have cleared up. That wasn't the case.

This pump just fills (refills) the 10,000 gallon storage tanks, so it typically comes on about every third day, runs pumps 1500 gallons or so, and shuts down. The actual control for it is a float switch in the tank. Typically, I replace those very five or six years as the float leaks and sinks.

@plowhog There aren't any new wells nearby, and there havent been any big earthquakes recently, both of which definitely stir up aquifers. The reason I went looking at the pump was a defective house neutral (due to a rewiring for backup batteries) blew the power pole transformers, which took out the house power and the three phase delta wired pump transformer. So when the power company restored power with new transformers, they couldn't guarantee that the three phase power had the right "handedness" for the pump to spin the correct way and pump efficiently. (Full story here) Some folks raised the concern that it might be possible for the pump to spin the wrong way, and yet develop normal pressure. (I think that might be true in a single stage centrifugal pump, but I don't see it in a multistage centrifugal pump, but it isn't really here or there.) So...after verifying the wiring was ok, and verifying that the pump pressure was ok, I had to cycle the valves at the storage tanks to dump water in on top, and open the man-way cover and climb on top of the tank to actually watch the water flowing in and verify that the flow rate was normal. That lead me to realize that the water was more cloudy and rusty than it used to be. I have been noticing more rust coming off the water softener for awhile, but that roughly corresponded to a new water softener, so I just thought that the new softener was doing a better job of removing the iron in the water.

One of the reasons that people around here pump and store water is that gives the well water lots of time aerate and for the iron to oxidize and settle out of the water. Most of the locals have a hill top that makes for a good storage tank site and for us generally provides 25-50psi throughout the ranch by gravity feed alone.The other reason is that it keeps the water flowing for the livestock in case of all the things that can disrupt the water supply; lack of power, pump failure, plumbing issues, etc.

Thanks for the ideas!

All the best,

Peter

 

[gary49]

Sounds like check valve at head of pump has failed. If you didn’t have the valve near the well head, the pressure tank would dump water back into the well until the pump cycled back on. As it is, the water it’s dumping back to drop the pressure to zero could easily explain the turbidity you’re seeing. Iron in the water system coats everything and it doesn’t take much to stir it up. I wouldn’t mess with it as long as the treatment system you have is giving you decent water. I don’t know the answer to how long a sand filter lasts, but I would think it could be cleaned by the backwash system indefinitely. You might want to call whoever installed it for a better answer.

 

[Valveman]

If you have a top fed cistern the water in the tank cannot flow back down the well when the pump shuts off. Only the water in the well pipe can flow back, but even that can stir up the well. A good check valve on the pump is the only way to stop water from flowing back. Any other check valve in the system can cause water hammer on pump start. This is especially true when the check on the pump has failed or leaks back even a little. This allows the pump to start at max flow with no restriction. The water in the drop pipe will hit the second check valve like being hit in the nose with a boxing glove. The resulting water hammer can cause all kinds of problems, even including shattering the thrust bearing in the motor. The more check valves you have the worse the problem can be.

Remove the above ground check valve. Pump the well out at high flow for a long period of time. You may even need to shock the well then pump it out again. If removing the extra check valve and pumping the well hard doesn't make the check valve on the pump start working again, it will need to be replaced. I would examine the old pump and decide on installing it again. It hasn't been abused cycling only once every third day or so. It is probably better than any new pump you can buy, as they keep cheapening them up more every year.

 

[ponytug]

One of the local well drillers is telling me that in sediment filters sand media needs replenishing every five years or so, depending on the filter media. That seems to be the consensus in pool filters as well, though they seem like quite different use / flow cases to me.

As far as I have been able to determine, the pump is 38 years old, so perhaps it isn't totally surprising that the check valve is going bad.

YMMV...

All the best,

Peter

 

[Valveman]

Check valves, like everything else in a pump system, are destroyed by the pump cycling on and off too much. It has taken 38 years for yours to cycle enough to make the check valve fail, so you don't have much of a cycling problem. But even a pump or check valve that has lasted 38 years would have lasted longer if you had a Cycle Stop Valve. Not only does the CSV reduce the overall number of cycles but also makes for a mechanical soft start and soft stop, which among other things keeps the check valve from slamming and makes it last longer.

 

[Avenger]

Not sure whats going on with yours, but here is what happened to mine.

We bought a house with a low producing well about 10 years ago. We tested the well and it was recharging at 3GPM before we bought the house. However, it was also late April. Believing that 3GPM is a ton of water, we pulled the trigger on the house. The next summer the well kept going dry. I called a well and pump company and they came out to take a look. Measured the well at 1/8th Gallon per minute... dry well.

I did a bit of research and discovered a company in my area that does water well hydro fracturing and they guarantee more water. No driller will drill my 360ft well deeper. Apparently there is no money in it and no guarantee of more water. Anyway, I contacted the fracker and the owner came out to quote me and provide more information. Apparently, they will pull the pump, put seals in, and use high pressurized carbon dioxide to 'frack' the well, or rather use carbonic acid that is generated, under pressure, to clean out and expand the existing cracks in the granite. I agreed to do this, as its a guarantee of more water and only cost me about $5,000.

A few weeks later, and after some digging to get to the pitiless adapter, the fracker employees showed up, pulled the pump and did their thing. They told me that the water in the house will likely be carbonated for a few days. The entire process lasted about a day. And when they were done, the next several weeks were great! Measuring 10GPM!!

But after those weeks, the GPM went back down to almost nothing, and turned burnt orange! I contacted the fracker, who came back out to see for himself. Said they 'must have tapped into an old water source with high iron content.' Duh. He did refund about half of my money, because of the guarantee, stating that's the first time he has ever seen this. Meanwhile, I'm stuck with very little water, and what water we do have, is contaminated.

I contacted a water treatment company who came out to take a look. They tested the water and recommended a filter system that includes a water softener, something we didn't already have. However, they wanted $7,000 for the entire system installed. Took me a few months to come up with the cash. Meanwhile, the orange stained everything, toilets, tiles, clothing, dishes... everything. It plugged the sinks screens, the clothing washer filter, fridge filter, and was a nightmare.

We got the water filtration system installed. The water comes into the house, and goes though "Big Blue" a large sediment filter that filters down to 5 microns. Then it passes through the water softener, which also filters to some level. Next it goes though the "Shelco" a .5 micron carbon block filter. What comes out the other side is good, clean, soft water with nothing in it. I'd have to replace the Big Blue filter every month, and the Shelco about every 6 months. But that changed when I got an idea to get more water.

We still didn't have much water. In the wetter months, the well was producing quite well. But in the summer, we were running out of water simply by taking showers and flushing toilets. Something else had to be done. Drilling a new well on the property is ~$20,000 and that's not a pump, electrical, or anything other than a 6" hole. And no guarantee of water. OR I can spend another $7,000 to have a cistern put in. A cistern will allow the well to pump out as much water as it can, into an underground holding tank, which is then pumped to the house on a demand-by-demand basis. It also allows me to haul water, or have water brought in to feed the house.

I did a complete video series of this install on YT

This cistern had the added benefit of settling the water before it gets to the filters. Now I change Big Blue about every year, and the Shelco every other year. However, looking into the cistern, I do see the level of the iron rising. Before too long, I'll need to drain the tank, and clean it out. Not a job I'm looking forwards to. My well is still producing water, not much, but still producing water. I recently purchased a large truck to haul the water, simply so I can irrigate.

Anyway, that's my story.

 

[TheMan419]

We have a lot of iron in our water. A 5 micron filter before the water softener solves that problem fairly well for us. They do make whole house iron filters that back flush like a softner. We had one in our old house, but it really cut down on the pressure something fierce. We could not flush the toilet and take a shower at the same time.

Thankfully we live in the midwest where you drill down 100 feet and hit plenty of water.