Pumping up 60 feet or so ?

[bcarwell]

My property drops down a steep embankment about 60 feet and the property line ends in the middle of a small river (maybe 20 feet across and 5-10 feet deep).

I want to put in a small pond or water tank of a few thousand gallons of the river water for insurance and irrigation purposes.

Could somebody tell me what's entailed in pumping water up 60 feet or so ? I'm very patient and the flow rate doesn't have to be much (I could wait a few months to fill it).

But I'm clueless what sort of pump options there are, e.g. what type of pumps, how/if you prime it, and what the energy costs is in running a suitable pump. I know a "multi-stage" water well pump would work but also know they are $2k or so and probably overkill since they work depths of 400-600 feet.

And since its river water I'm wondering what sort of filtering if any would be required to not ruin the pump. Can't tell you much about the river water other than its certainly not clear but not brown mud water either- kind of a garden variety greenish slowly flowing water, e.g. I don't have a clue how much particulate matter is in it.

Are there some sort of "poor-man's" pump solutions a la Whole Earth Catalog- e.g. not elegant, but cheap and work ? Like using some discarded somethingerother pump from an XYZ, etc. What does a suitable used pump cost ? Names or type pumps to look for ?

(Would-be) Farmer Bob

 

[George2615]

If you are pumping water horizontally along the ground from the stream to your pond you can use a pump as simple as a basement type submersible sump pump and some 1 1/4" tubing. It doesn't take much move it horizontal. Its when you have to pump straight up like a well pump does then you need a more expensive pump that can handle head pressure. Northern Tool and probably TSC have many pumps that will work from 1300-21000 GPH $40. through $1000 depending on what you want to spend. If you have a generator all you need is the pump and 60 or so feet of tubing. connect the tubing, set the pump in the stream fire up the generator and turn on the switch. sump pumps are self priming. Northern has a 6000 GPH 3/4 HP pump for about $200. If no generator then you'll need a long ext. cord or a gas motor powered pump.

 

[KentT]

Sounds like you need what's called a "semi-trash" or irrigation pump -- one that won't be destroyed by the sand and other small debris that will inevitably be sucked into the pump out of the river.

In addition to the Gallons Per Hour (GPH), you need to check two other specifications for it. The first is suction or lift -- that describes how far the pump will suck water upslope, so you can position the pump on safe, level ground while it is operating. The other is "head" which is the height that the pump will pump the water on up the slope. Some pumps will use the term "total head" to describe the amount of suction/lift, plus the head -- it is the totally vertical distance that you can move the water.

IMO, if you're going to be filling a pond, I'd suggest you get a pretty big pump (10,000 GPH or more) -- which typically will provide both the higher GPH and a higher head. Gas-powered Chinese ones are available in the $200-$250 range, and prices will go up to about $450-500 for one with a Honda engine, for example.

Also, keep in mind that you'll be periodically refilling that pond to replace what evaporates...

Here's a 11,100 GPH Honda powered pump with a total head of 98 feet from Northern Tool for $429

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_74621_74621

 

[Jimbrown]

Duhhhh he said a few thousand gallons Like 3 or 4 thousand he don't need a 10,000 gallon per hour pump. A two gallon a min pump will do what he wants.

 

[RalphVa]

Have you checked into getting a PTO-driven pump? A friend of mine uses one to pump out of streams. Think they're centrifugal pumps, which can pump water with some solids. For 60' of head, you only need the pump to put up a minimum of 25 psi. Most will put up 40-60 psi.

You'll need a footer valve, which is just a spring-held check valve, on the end of your suction hose to help the pump to get suction. You can either put in a T at the pump suction to allow you to pour water into the pump and suction line to fill it or just fill the line and then connect to the pump. The footer valve may get stuff stuck between the valve and valve body, but they're easy to work on to clean out.

I've pumped out of my little stream with a 12v pump bought from TSC that is like the ones used on portable sprayer rigs. It pumps 1-4 gpm up to almost any head, more rate at lower heads, of course. I've pumped from the stream up 100' into tanks here at the house.

Ralph

 

[gordon21]

RalphVa has a good idea. Use your tractor to power a PTO pump assuming you can get the tractor within 30' of the stream. The big box stores and TSC type places will have various foot valves and strainers. The foot valve will prevent backflow and a strainer may be needed depending on how much crud is in the water. No need for a generator, ext cords or even a gasoline powered trash pump. make sure to take advantage of flowing water when placing the inlet. Try to let water rush into it to keep a maximum flow going.

Look around for used or out of date fire hose to use to go up the hill. They are dirt cheap on e-bay. I bought two 75' 1.5" fire hoses, a solid brass nozzle and all the fittings to attach to PVC for about $100. I had the hose hooked up to my well in Miami and it was the biggest baddest garden hose on the block. I fired up the irrigation well and it would spray a lot of water 100'. Try that with your 5/8" hose from Home Depot.

The fire hose would be sturdy and cheap and relatively easy to hook up to a PTO pump. You could probably get a flow rate of 4000-6000 GPH and 2 hours tractor running time would get you 10,000 gallons or more for merely the cost of the hose and pump.

 

[tractorsanmore]

Maybe rent a water / trash pump at a rental store , or you can usually purchase used ones from them

 

[monkeymonk]

Ok ive been waiting for someone to reply sooo...

I use a Honda WH20 I pump water 1000feet in length (head) and around 100feet of vertical head. The pump is rated for 175GPM (Gallons per min) thats at the pump and 150 feet of vertical head. It takes 10 to 15 min to fill my 500 gallon tank i also have a 2500 gal tank. for you it would be much quicker with 60ft. They have a 2in or 1 1/2 intake out take and you can reduce both to fit your needs

The intake from river to pump is 20 or so feet depending on the flows and season. These pumps are made to push water long distances not pull long distances.

The intake has a round coffe can looking filter on the end (comes standard with unit) It doesnt allow large debris or rocks to enter the pump. these are not trash pumps. a trash pump would not work for your situation. These pumps CAN handle small debris and pebbles,but has a filter. you don't need to change this type of filter and you do not need clear water to use this pump.

To prime this pump you unscrew the top cap and pour water into the centerfuige and your ready.

I pump up and use gravity for irrigation and fire safety

I would recomend a tank vs a pond if your pumping

These pumps run 650$ for the wh20 and 500? for the WH15.Change the oil on a honda every 20 hours and it'll last a life time one pull every time
one tank of gas goes far on these units

I have been in your boat and looked at alot of pumps push type pull type low flow high flow so onnnnn........

If theres a fire you want as much water as you can pump in that distance and the WH does a good one

I had a pump from northern tool with a honda motor. The motor still works but the centerfuige(pump piece) was a real piece of junk and cavitated and just plain stopped working after 2 or so years

www.hondapowerequiptment.com
Good luck!

 

[bcarwell]

All GREAT advice. This forum is terrific. Gotta digest it all and will be back. In meantime, a guy at work said for centrifugal or 'suck' pumps, physics says if you have even a perfect vacuum, the most you get is air pressure 14 psi and you won't be able to get up 60 feet. True ?

And one other thing: well pumps I've looked at obviously are submersible and have either 110VAC or 220VAC running to them <into the water>. If its a well, I presume safety isn't an issue since nobody is around the pump.

But if you've got one in a river, is there an electrocution issue, e.g. if something leaks or shorts that isn't supposed to, are you possibly putting 220VAC into a river that some kid you don't even know about rafting from up river gets electrocuted by as he rafts by your property ? Or does it ruin some racoon's day washing his fish off by the bank ?

Thanks again for all the terrific information. After a little more study I'll be back..

Farmer Bob

 

[monkeymonk]

All GREAT advice. This forum is terrific. Gotta digest it all and will be back. In meantime, a guy at work said for centrifugal or 'suck' pumps, physics says if you have even a perfect vacuum, the most you get is air pressure 14 psi and you won't be able to get up 60 feet. True?

But if you've got one in a river, is there an electrocution issue, e.g.

Farmer Bob

My pump has 61PSI and 175GM its a "push" type, sucks water from 20 feet below it then pushes it 1000 feet 100 vertical .

Diaphram pumps have little PSI and GPM's a small one runs $1,500

same with the "SureFlow" pumps but much cheaper

True my WH20 will pump 150 vertical feet straight up at more than 14 PSI

NOT true: not sure if this is what the guy at work is refering to as a "suck" pump?

My neighbor runs an electric pump from the river to his tank.He has breakers on the plug inlet and a GFI plug,the cord is water proof and 20 or 30 feet long he pumps 500feet maybe 60-80 vertical not sure about his PSI. No animals or peeps have been Electrofied round here