Question for those who live in California

[dfkrug]

So my desire to do fuel reduction was blocked by bureacracy and a turf war between agencies.

It is truly a bureaucratic disaster.

I have rehashed my story on TBN before, but I did apply for a fire hazard exemption back in the 90s in prep to build my house. The CDF forester at the time denied it. I was forced to get another kind of exemption to the usual THP rules, after appealing my denial. The appeal process is corrupt in that your appeal just goes to another CDF forester, and they report to the governor.

So I hired a forester, got my exemption and found a logger who traded the work for the trees. I got the mess, plus I even had to pay a Timber Harvest Tax, which was thankfully small. It does not matter that I got no revenue from the trees removed.

You can't sell any logs to any sawmill in CA without a THP or exemption permit. You even have to be a Licensed Timber Operator to sell firewood or even Christmas trees, or risk a fine if you are turned in. CalFire has grudgingly admitted that you can give away firewood, free. All the logs I give away here are free. I have already been turned in more than once, so I try to follow the rules. Note that the CA Forest Practice Rules is a 100 page doc that is clear as mud.

 

[deserteagle71]

One of the most publicized is private citizens using bulldozers creating fire breaks as the flames approached

The dangerous work was credited with saving millions of dollars of property but it was not authorized... it impacted critical habitat, there was no plan or review, no filings nor fees paid...

At one time criminal charges were being bandied and even jail time for creating the fire breaks.

The above situation has caused a lot of friction here in northern Nevada between the locals and the BLM/Forest Service firefighting agencies.

Used to be, as soon as a fire was detected the ranchers/farmers would get on their big tractors and with blades and discs start creating a fire line, no matter whether the fire was on public or private land. The idea was to stop the spread of the fire as soon as possible, before it got so big it was uncontrollable. In 2007 I was asked by the firefighters to widen a fire break (road and its shoulders on public land) when a fire threatened my place and my neighbors.

That is no longer allowed. NO ONE is allowed to fight a fire on public land unless they are "certified" to do so by some bureaucrat - which means having all the equipment used inspected and stickered and the operator having firefighter training. Being as so many of these fires are miles from anywhere, by the time the "professional" government firefighters get to them, it is too late. They are already out of control.

I have public land (BLM) on the north and east of my place. If there is a fire there all I can do is watch it burn and hope the fire breaks I created on my property will stop the fire before it gets to my buildings.

 

[dfkrug]

Exactly... we as in the system is often our worst enemy.

The wine country fire brought many situations to light.

One of the most publicized is private citizens using bulldozers creating fire breaks as the flames approached

Yeah, and CalFire can bulldoze all sorts of firebreaks to stop the progression of an existing fire. No permits, no policing, no ****.

 

[ultrarunner]

^^^ Sad state of things…

Just knowing those brave dozer operators could face criminal charges sent a chill to the point where many said I will let insurance deal with it but now insurance is leaving…

Maybe a ACT

Maybe right to protect legislation in the face of imminent catastrophic danger like emergency medical has would help?

 

[jyoutz]

Part of my forested rural property could benefit from reduction in fuels by removing some trees as well as slash and debris. A very obvious thing to do to lower risk of wildfire.

I got an offer from a contractor to do this. With no payment to me, he would do the fire reduction risk work in exchange for the value of wood he removed. Not a big job-- just a small part of my land and not at all like a formal timber harvest.

CalFire learned of this and said: Whoa! You are "deriving value" from the wood even though it is a barter situation. Therefore you need a formal Timber Harvest Plan signed by a Registered Professional Forester.

I checked into getting a formal Timber Harvest Plan. Because of the size of our property, and the existence of our pond and creek(s), the estimated cost was between $20k and $30k. Part of that was to search for possible endangered species such as the yellow legged frog. It would take upward of a year to prepare the plan and receive approval from CalFire. The Registered Professional Forester who could prepare the plan said he is backlogged for at least a year before he could start to prepare such a plan.

So my desire to do fuel reduction was blocked by bureacracy and a turf war between agencies. But if a fire starts on my property it is me who is held liable.

Sad state of affairs.

Send me a PM. I will give you the contact for a registered professional forester in N CA who will help you out. It sounds like you are receiving bad information. First, there are forestry incentives programs that will cost/share a large percentage of the planning and fuels reduction work. And T&E species clearance is not an involved long drawn out process. A quick visit by a biologist and they prepare a short report. And no, you shouldn’t have to wait a year for a forester visit and plan preparation.

 

[jyoutz]

Exactly... we as in the system is often our worst enemy.

The wine country fire brought many situations to light.

One of the most publicized is private citizens using bulldozers creating fire breaks as the flames approached

The dangerous work was credited with saving millions of dollars of property but it was not authorized... it impacted critical habitat, there was no plan or review, no filings nor fees paid...

At one time criminal charges were being bandied and even jail time for creating the fire breaks.

Dozer lines do not stop fires. Dozer lines need to be back burned and held by Fire crews to be effective. And they need to be at the correct topographical locations to be defensible.

 

[ultrarunner]

Dozer lines do not stop fires. Dozer lines need to be back burned and held by Fire crews to be effective. And they need to be at the correct topographical locations to be defensible.

I have little experience other than mandated to put in fire break/trail on family property.

The wine country fire was heading towards a friends vineyard with vines burning.

He jumped on his dozer with attached disc and made ever wider perimeter circles around the homestead… I’m sure his metal roof also helped and the place didn’t burn but vines on property did with advancing flames.

There was a report on wild fire tactics and overall negative… that is unless you happen to be one where your home survived.

Here is excerpt

Ingalsbee wrote that dozer lines are ineffective because of today’s landscape of overgrown forests, rampant droughts and extreme weather events. He said they are essentially linear clear-cuts that fragment forest habitats, damage Native American artifacts and create “ghost roads” for illegal off-road vehicles.

 

[ultrarunner]

Cowboys Fighting Fires in Napa County | Wine-Searcher News & Features

Amateur firefighters are bulldozing their way through the California blazes, but some of the professionals don't seem too pleased. Read the latest wine news & features on wine-searcher

www.wine-searcher.com

A good prospective…

Maybe it’s a turf war…

Ever hear dozer operators called cowboys?

 

[jyoutz]

I have little experience other than mandated to put in fire break/trail on family property.

The wine country fire was heading towards a friends vineyard with vines burning.

He jumped on his dozer with attached disc and made ever wider perimeter circles around the homestead… I’m sure his metal roof also helped and the place didn’t burn but vines on property did with advancing flames.

There was a report on wild fire tactics and overall negative… that is unless you happen to be one where your home survived.

Here is excerpt

Ingalsbee wrote that dozer lines are ineffective because of today’s landscape of overgrown forests, rampant droughts and extreme weather events. He said they are essentially linear clear-cuts that fragment forest habitats, damage Native American artifacts and create “ghost roads” for illegal off-road vehicles.

A little bit of wildfire behavior is necessary to unravel the story. A dozer line might contain fire spread in light fuels like grass (without high winds), but in brush or forest fuels, fire lines are only built so they can be back fired. The dozer line doesn’t stop fires, the line is only to serve as an anchor point for crews to back fire and hold. What contains the fire is running out of fuel to burn. The back fire consumes the fuel and runs toward the main fire. When they meet, there is no more fuel to burn. Lines without doing burn out and using holding forces are usually ineffective.

 

[ultrarunner]

I see your point… an 8 or 12’ wide line isn’t much.

The grape grower created his break disking under his vines in ever widening circle…

He cleared/disked under hundreds of feet until he could do no more…

Sometimes a freeway will stop a fire and others times not.

From my Oakland Hill Firestorm experience it was the combination of low humidity, fuel and unrelenting windstorm.

The windstorm was the wildcard and 3000 homes lost.

It was a transient camp where fire quickly extinguished the blaze or at least they thought they did and returned to the fire house… incredible wind followed and the rest is tragic history.