Question on Garden startup

[jimmer2880]

Please pardon the dumb questions. I'm new to gardening.

My wife & I plan on starting a garden in the spring of 2010 (although, there is a chance to start it this spring ('09)).

We have the finest clay for top soil, then shale under that, there is.

The local landfill sells compost by the ton at a very reasonable price. However, I have a buddy who has a handful of horses and plenty of poop from cleaning out the stalls.

I have a single bottom plow and a rototiller for my little yanmar tractor. My plan, was to plow to bust the dirt, then rototill. Then, come in with some compost and plow/till again. This is what I have done with flower plots around the house, they have turned out well.

But - my buddy has offered to deliver to me a couple trailer loads of his stall "left overs". Now, I have no idea what to do.

1) Is the horse poop better than the compost from the local landfill?
2) If we go with the poop - how much should I put on? Our garden will probably be about 25'x50' ~ish
3) How long prior should I start prepping the soil? Is a couple months enough, or should I do it for over a year?
4) I realize it's a relatively small garden compared to many on here. Is the plow and tiller enough, or should I look into additional equipment


thank you for any help you can toss my way.

 

[Lloyd_E]

Jimmer,

I would not trust the land fill stuff - you have no control over what people put in the green carts. You friend's horse manure is the way to go.

I am about to start what you are planning. We have hard clay here. We did have a small garden - 20x30 years ago but I am planning on a larger one probably 100'x 25' pie shape.

My plan is to put about 6 inches of composted manure over top of area and let it rest. Will till in the spring once the land is passable. If you can get composted manure it is better. If you can only get fresh - compost it - you will need at least a year for good compost; no seeds, wood chips broken down etc.

Your plan of busting the dirt and rototilling will help. I don't have a plow so many passes over the sod, clay and composted manure will have to work.

The more you can let the manure break down over the garden area the better. Part of the new garden area was a huge compost pile for years - it will be easy tilling due to the break down of sod and soil from the manure.

Good luck - keep us posted. I will probably start to lay composted manure in the new year - once the ground is frozen.

Lots of good info on manure on the net.

lloyd

PS: if you can get the area tilled or prepared and allow the snow to fall, the snow will add good nitrogen for free.

 

[jimmer2880]

Thanks Lloyd. Our ground just froze, so I can probably still plow it. Perhaps I'll do that, and start getting loads from him.

I was a little concerned about the dump stuff also - especially since we plan on eating what grows in there

thanks for the good info.

 

[mbohuntr]

My 2 cents... Manure is the way to go, but fresh manure is too "hot" , it will harm your plants. Better to get the oldest stuff he has at first, and put the fresh stuff aside for a year to drop the strength so your plants don't get burned. (Urine and manure is very acidic) Avoid wood chips as they give nitrogen issues(I'm not sure if it adds, or pulls it down). Avoid unknowns like landfill as you might have stuff like arsenic from pressure treated lumber in it. Grass clippings and leaves piled for compost make awsome soil in a year, plus it's free. enjoy.

 

[MarkV]

If you are not planning on planting until 2010 I would start dumping any organic matter I could find on the future garden bed. Plow or till it in as the weather allows and your soil will be much better. Next summer after you have worked the soil some have a soil test done which will guide you towards what is still needed. Acidic soil will need lime to balance the PH. Lime takes several months to adjust the PH so sooner is better than later. I'd get all that horse poo you can.

As far as the compost from the landfill goes I would use it if you can talk to the landfill operators to see what standards are used. Many landfills are composting and it ends up being what you buy in bags at the nursery.

MarkV

 

[jinman]

I agree with MarkV. Use the landfill compost after talking to them. I would not use the horse manure unless you are certain what the horses eat. Typically, manure can be full of weed seed and you will "import" every type of seed that was in the hay the horses eat. You can manage this, but plan on weeding more than if you go with the landfill compost. My favorite type of compost is cotton burr compost. If it's available in bulk in your area, I'd give some of it a try.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Horse poop, as much as you can get.

Very mild and very easy to work with once the flies are gone.
My entire garden is pure horse poop. I plant directly into it.
I have already tilled the poop and I am ready to plant once the ground thaws.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

The local landfill sells compost by the ton at a very reasonable price. However,

What is reasonable?
Bob

 

[jimmer2880]

What is reasonable?
Bob

I dont' remember exactly. Mulch is $15.00 per ton. I think the compost is a little more - perhaps $30.00 per ton.

 

[jimmer2880]

many thanks for all the good info. good point on importing weeds. He rides his horses regularly, so they frequently eat whatever is alongside the trail.

I will ask my landfill what they put in their compost. But - knowing the locals, I would be surprised if it DIDN'T have something bad in it and the landfill would never know.

 

[Lloyd_E]

If composted properly - all 'weed' seeds will be cooked or eliminated.
The compost pile can get to 180 degrees or more. This heat will kill all seed and unwanted matter.

We have a local land file site that composts. I would not trust what goes in it period.
Horse manure is your best bet because it is free, contains known matter; oats & hay stretch - you can read the label on the feed bag for more info; local pasture and hay. Ask the horse owner for his hay suppliers number to find out what he puts on his fields.

If you can compost 1-2 years ahead you will have amazing soil. It takes awhile but is worth it. Wood chips add nitrogen as part of the composting process. So depending on what you want to grow you may want it in a certain area of your garden perhaps on a flat area so the rain run off will not add more nitro to an unwanted area.

lloyd

 

[charlz]

I process a lot of horse manure from a local stable. He brings it up in a dump trailer and dumps it for free (20-30 yards per month in spring and summer). Coming out of the trailer it makes sort of a low windrow. I add water as needed (in the summer this can be a lot, I have a 1.5 inch hose off my pond I use) and then work the row with the 3pt tiller by backing up onto the windrow. I then 'stack' it with the loader into a taller, narrower pile. I work the pile again every other week or so until it no longer heats up as much, about 6 weeks. Keeping moisture in it is the most critical part. It then gets moved to a 'curing' pile. By working the compost in this way it is done much faster than the 'pile and forget' method.

If you have the space I would compost all the manure coming from him in this way to help sterilize seeds etc. I find this method comes out a lot more sterile than the old leaves and grass clippings composting I used to do.

I don't really buy off on the 'let it sit and cure for a year'. What the micro organisms are doing in the curing pile they can be doing in your soil. Once it no longer heats way up it is done enough to use. The commercial compost operations certainly don't wait a year.

Compost disappears really fast once you add it to the soil. I'd start collecting the stuff and composting it. When you have some ready spread it and work it into the garden soil. Then, assuming your garden is not in a place where the wind will blow everything away, add the next few batches on top. This will mulch it to keep weeds down and the natural processes will work it into your soil. Once you are ready to plant, work it in a bit, lay off your rows and start planting. Once the various plants are up enough to not get buried I like to mulch with a few inches of compost as well, it keeps some of the weeds down, holds moisture and adds to the soil.

I am pretty sure you can never have enough compost. I use a lot of it in the gardens, flower beds and on the lawns.... all for just the price of some diesel for the tractor and my time.

 

[Doc_Bob]

many thanks for all the good info. good point on importing weeds. He rides his horses regularly, so they frequently eat whatever is alongside the trail.

Weeds or me are not a big issue. I cover my plot with black plastic all in the Fall, and winter and then uncover this weed free soil in the Spring. Weeds erupt like crazy. I have never been convinced that the horse manure brings a greater risk of weeds. The weeds come from all the weeds around the food plot.

Bob

 

[kossetx]

Here's my .02. Go ahead and wait until '10. Between now and then get as much of the manure and any other compostable material you can get, pile it as high as you can in the future area of your garden and let it rot. You'll be lucky to get 1" of addition from 8" of compost when it is finally done. Every year I haul at least 100 bags of yard debris from Houston to my property. It is still hardly noticable in the garden as compost.

Also, a raised bed is better than a tilled in soil level garden.

 

[Stimw]

Make sure the horse manure wasn't limed, it'll ruin your PH.
The more you till it up the better your soil will become. I've been tilling an area for 8 years now and my soil just keeps getting better. I haven't added that much organic matter. I do add 10-10-10 fertilizer every year. I have sandy soil and fertilizer leaches out.
Plant soon, plant often! Even poor soil will grow something! I give away a lot of what I grow. I even take extras to the local fire station. Those guys gotta eat too and I think they pay for their own food.

 

[Taylortractornut]

I run a a volunteered composting operation at the landfill I run. We use oak and pine sawdust from the cabinet shop on our roads to run trucks on the clay to the working face. When it saturates I ll take the paddle wheel scraper and dump it on a stock piling area. Then take the D5 and pile it up onto a tall stock pile till I get about 250 yards. Then I start to turn it it till it browns thats 3 times a week for 3 weeks. Compsting wood wastethats fresh takes away too much nitrogen till its composted a certain point and makes nitrogen. What to do to counter this and make it hotter you have to add manure and green like grass clippings to the windrows. Since I run an inert land fill I cant take food wastes. Manure is fine as we trade some planers shavings for soiled bedding. I was going by my state guide lines on the mixing amounts but was gettin un balanced levels of nitrogen. So about every 100 yards of sawust and chips I add 20 yards of manure and bedding. When its gets dark brown I roll the piled every morning. I hope to have enough combine and cotton picker parts this summer to build a rotary windrow turner to maximize my efficiency. My only problems with my compost is that I get small chunks of plastic and foam from the tracks into the compost but as its tilled in it comes up an I can seperate it. I also screen some of it. Compost also helps break you lime down faster as well.

 

[ray66v]

Manure is not worth the trouble in a small garden. Horse manure in full of noxious weeds, and cow manure smells very strong. And manure can burn your plants if not used properly.

Add compost, (it often smells bad enough), either commercial, or grind up some leaves, or trees, and till it in. (Best done in the fall).

Check your ph and fertilizer levels in the spring, and lime and or add fertilizer, to adjust the levels. Do not add lime just because someone says to, add it but only after a ph test, if you need to raise the ph.

 

[tile]

Well we got our raised beds filled with a mix of top-soil and mushroom compost

Works great a load of mushroom compost about 5-7 yrds runs $135.00 or so.

Ron.

 

[charlz]

Plant soon, plant often!

Which reminds me, if you are not planting in '09 look at doing a few cycles of a green manure crop. Each time you till it under throw some more compost in there.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Manure is not worth the trouble in a small garden. Horse manure in full of noxious weeds, and cow manure smells very strong. And manure can burn your plants if not used properly.

I use the horse manure when fully digested. The stuff that my neighbor gives me is like topsoil. Rich, fertile and awesome.

For smell, I suggest chicken manure! Especially with chicken parts like feathers, wings, egg shells, etc. as it really grosses out the wife.
Bob