Questions About Propane

[Junkman]

If the basic electrical service hasn't been installed yet, the cost of the 200 amp transfer switch is about $250 the last time that I purchased one (2 years ago). The additional work to install it will be about an additional hour and the materials will be insignificant. Talk to the electrician about this before the work is started. Once he sets the meter socket and starts the wiring to the main panel, it is a pain to retrofit the unit.

 

[bmac]

Don,

I'm glad the propane guru (that would be you) chimmed in.

Ideally, I too would have the tank(s) out close to the road. However, ingress to our property is via an easement so I doubt the owners of that land would want me planting a propane tank there. Its also about 800' from the house. So, I guess I'll be bringing it in a little closer. But, now I know that a couple hundred feet away is no problem and I can start planning accordingly.

Would you have a problem with the propane line being covered with a concrete driveway? Is the liklihood of leaks small enough that you would risk having to break up the concrete to effect a repair?

I did forget about the gas range. Its going to be one of those big commercial models (six 15,000 BTU burners + a griddle). I'll need to remember that in the calculations as well as possibly 2 propane grills outside.

I think I told the builder that I wanted a 1000 gal tank for the house and a 500 gal for the generator. Overkill? If I go with 2 tanks, can they be plumbed such that I could switch to the small tank for the house if the big tank gets low on gas and we're in the dead of winter and gas prices are at their peak?

I would like to buy the tank(s) but I haven't yet checked on availability. I've read that in some areas, folks can only lease them and then they're stuck buying from that supplier. I would like to avoid that.

As always, I appreciate your expertise and willingness to help.

 

[BubbaJr]

We built our house in 2001-02 several miles past the boonies. So I knew that I would need a generator for those "special" times. We had the house wired up so that all the essential circiuts were in a seperate panel, then those circuits were hooked to the auto transfer switch mounted next to it in the basement. We have 18 acres of hardwood trees, so there is plenty of fuel available so we installed a wood burning fireplace ( I wanted a woodburning stove, but my wife has a regressive pyromania gene) so I knuckled under and we went with the fireplace.
This January we had the worst ice storm in over 100 years and we were without electric for a week. Everything worked as planned except for the time I took a shower and I reached up for the towel and I saw steam rising off my arm. Then I went and got a thermometer and found out it was 42 degrees in the bathroom.
Long story shortened, we survived just fine due to the preplanning I did before we even started on the house.
Just try to think of all the electric uses you REALLY need and just put them on the generator. That way you will save quite a bit of money and still have a livable house when the going gets tough. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, I went with a propane powered Honda engined 11KW generator. My first generator was B&S powered, and it only lasted about a year with only 15 hours on it before it wouldn't start anymore. They even brought the "expert" up from Georgia, and he couldn't figure out what was wrong either. So I would recommend any unit that has a Honda engine in it. It's also a lot quieter than the B&S.

EDIT: You will also want to place your tanks so that the delivery trucks won't have to cross any concrete drives unless you have the drive reinforced to carry the extra weight of the tanker truck.

 

[OkeeDon]

I would run the propane lines under a concrete drive, if I thought I could afford the concrete /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Seriously, there are some service stations locally which have undergorund tanks feeding a propane dispensing station, and all of the plumbing (but not the tank itself) is under concrete. When we were fabricating outdoor kitchens, we often plumbed a gas line in under the concrete patio and up where the grill was to be. There's always the slight risk that a cosmic upheaval will thrust a rock against the polyethene line at exactly the wrong place, but I;d take the risk. Of course, we have no rocks -- or, at least, no rocks larger than a grain of sand /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

Personally, I would worry about running the generator for a long period of time and put the larger tank there. That's because I would have sincere doubts about the ability of the gas company to make timely visits to refill during a general emergency. In normal times, they will be able to keep the smaller tank full for your normal use.

The plumbing to switch from one tank to another could be done, but it would involve a lot of designing, a lot of valves, and possibly some confusion, along with expense. The easiest way to do it might be to plumb both tanks into a manifold, then withdraw different circuits from the manifold. There would be valves allowing either or both tanks to flow into the manifold, and valves to allow either or both output circuits (house and generator) to withdraw from the manifold. Of course, there would be no simple way to determine usage by each of the circuits without metering the output lines. Otherwise, the combination of valves and bypasses would start to resemble a railroad switching yard.

As for buying the tanks, I'm still hoping for a deal. The state LP Gas safety inspector for our region of Florida is a good friend who lives just a few miles away in Okeechobee. He's doing a low-key search for me; when I get closer to the actual installation he'll step up the search for a gas company who wants to get rid of an excess unit. What I really want to find is a dispensing system so I can fill my own RV and portable tanks, but I don't want to have to pay what that's worth. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I know it's possible, because my friend has one...but then, he has a lot of clout.

 

[v8dave]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If the basic electrical service hasn't been installed yet, the cost of the 200 amp transfer switch is about $250 the last time that I purchased one (2 years ago). The additional work to install it will be about an additional hour and the materials will be insignificant. Talk to the electrician about this before the work is started. Once he sets the meter socket and starts the wiring to the main panel, it is a pain to retrofit the unit. )</font>

I agree with Junk here except on price. I had a 200 amp GE-Zenith (autostart) transfer switch retrofitted into my power service. It would have been a lot cheaper to have been done when the house was being constructed. But, that was for the first owner 10 years ago.

The GE-Zenith 200 amp transfer switch is now around $900. Get an auto start unit and your generator will come on and go off line automatically.

I switch the whole house. I sized my generator to carry every thing except the air cnditioning. To handle the AC I'm putting a relay, driven by the genset, in series with the AC unit (thermostat line call for AC, not the power line).

Sequence works as follows. Power goes off, if AirConditioning is on it goes off and the thermostat has an automatic lock out for a minute or more. Generator takes 5 to 10 seconds to come on line. When power comes up the relay picks up and disconnects the thermostat call for air conditioning. No danger of air conditioner comming on and knocking off the genset because of the thermostat hold off--which is there to keep the air conditioner from starting into a charged system which will pop the breakers and/or fuses.

When power is restored, relay drops out, thermostat call for air conditioning now goes through and cool air comes on. With this set up I can control the air conditioning without a panel separating loads to run on the generator. I have power every where in the house, not just where I pre-planned. And, I can run the whole house (except air conditioning) on an 11 KW diesel generator set.

Junkman--you want a lead on Kubota generator sets? List price is high but they can be bought for substantialy less than list. Which puts them near the same price as a diesel brand X-unit. Which, as you know still isn't cheap.

 

[v8dave]

I forgot to comment about the electrician to install the transfer switch. In my case I had a wall open to run power to my shop and I wanted to put the wiring for the genset in the wall and have the transfer switch all done at the same time.

My electrician for the shop didn't understand the needs of the transfer switch, so I had to hire another electrician to do the job. Second electrician was an outfit that specialized in back-up generators and knew how to cut the buss bars in my service panel to get to the transfer switch. The first electrician recommended the second electrician.

Bottom line: ask questions of the electrician doing the basic house work. Make sure he is comfortable with what you are asking for in regards to the back-up generator.

 

[rozett]

Junkman, where did you find a 200 amp transfer switch for $250? Mine is over 20 years old and the mechanical interlock is not reliable. I can't find a 200 amp unit much under a grand. I am talking automatic transfer, not manual.

 

[Junkman]

My switch is a manual switch with lock out. I don't remember the brand, but I got it at the local electrical supply house. I didn't want automatic transfer since I don't need it. I am home usually when the power goes out. Yesterday, the power went out about 3 or 4 times, but the longest period was about 3 minutes and the shortest was about 45 seconds. A automatic system would be going on and off frequently unless I set it for minimum of 15 minutes of outage. I like to keep it simple and inexpensive...

 

[techman]

If you want to plan for power outages, you should consider a diesel generator. Much, much lower operating costs than propane. It will cost a bit more to buy (a good one), but if you need to run for several days it is much cheaper. You could get a 250 gal oil tank and fill it with heating oil to run the generator. Keep the moisture out and put some stabilizer in and it will last for years.

Oh this is a traxctor forum, so I assume you have a tractor and already use diesel fuel...even a better reason.

paul

 

[v8dave]

Here is the place to get specifications for Kubota Diesel generator sets Anderson Equipment. They also have the best pricing for these gensets I've found. Shipping was surprisingly low.

Any Diesel generator set is pricey and Kubota gensets aren't cheap, but Anderson does price these competetively with brand-x Diesel gensets. You can buy China import diesel gensets fairly inexpensively here is a place GeneratorSales. Caveat emptor, there ain't no free lunch.