Questions About Propane

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> If you have already decided on Propane, you really should have already decided on a supplier and be talking to them about this. </font>

You may have a point here.

<font color="blue"> I would suggest you find a supplier as soon as possible to lock in summer prices for your winter supply by pre-buying. </font>

Well, we probably won't be finishing this house until about February, according to the builder. Don't know how soon I could make a commitment in that I don't even have a tank yet. Can you order and pay now and lock in Summer rates for delivery in February?

<font color="blue"> Personally, I can't wait to get away from the stuff. </font>

Believe me, I would prefer natural gas but it is not available in this remote location. But, I don't like the idea of being total electric, either. Pick your poison, I guess.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I'll look into ordering early.

 

[bmac]

<font color="blue">Talk to the electrician about this before the work is started. </font>

Will do!

 

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> Long story shortened, we survived just fine due to the preplanning I did before we even started on the house. </font>

That's exactly what I am trying to accomplish now.

<font color="blue"> Just try to think of all the electric uses you REALLY need and just put them on the generator. That way you will save quite a bit of money and still have a livable house when the going gets tough. </font>

Makes a lot of sense. Of course, my wife and I will probably have completely different ideas of what would fall into the "essential" category. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<font color="blue"> You will also want to place your tanks so that the delivery trucks won't have to cross any concrete drives unless you have the drive reinforced to carry the extra weight of the tanker truck. </font>

I'm not sure I'll be able to avoid this. My land has no road frontage. Access to the houose is via a driveway that will be about 800'. If budget permits, we plan to have the entire length paved. Ideally, concrete the whole way. May have to use asphalt for most of the length and reserve the concrete for the area closest to the house. A rough estimate, including turnarounds, parking and driveway would be about 12,000 sq. ft. of concrete if I make the driveway 12 ft wide. Whats that come out to? 148 yards? Any idea what the pricetag of that would be?

Assuming the base is prepared properly, is there any difference in the abilities of asphalt and concrete to withstand heavy loads? I am guessing that both would be susceptible to failure under the load of a propane delivery truck.

 

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> If you want to plan for power outages, you should consider a diesel generator. ....You could get a 250 gal oil tank and fill it with heating oil to run the generator.</font>

As usual, I'm speaking from a position of ignorance here, but I'm not sure that heating oil is even available in this part of the country. Never herd of anyone here heating with oil-fueled equipment. I realize that is is just diesel fuel, but in terms of home delivery of fuel... gee, , I just don't know. Something to ask about.

<font color="blue"> Oh this is a traxctor forum, so I assume you have a tractor and already use diesel fuel...even a better reason.
</font>

Now that would be sweet - no more lifting the 5 gal can to refuel. Just a matter of where I would put the tank. At least with propane, I can bury it to get it out of sight.

 

[bmac]

Lots of good ideas and suggestions here. Thank you all. In my current home, we have not yet had a power outage that lasted more than about 12 hours. However, in some places not too far from me, there have been outages that lasted for several days.

The most common culprit in our area is ice storms. Thankfully, we rarely get more than 1 of these per year. There is the occassional remnant of a hurricane that can pass through with wind velocity high enough to knock the power out and, of course, tornados every once and awhile. All in all, we are not in a high risk area for long-term outages.

My thoughts, however, are that , with the new home being in a more remote location, we will be a lower priority for power restoration than the more densly populated areas. So our outages may last longer. That is why I am considering a back up power supply. Still, I think most of the time it would restore power for nuisance outages rather than those lasting long enough to make life without one truely miserable.

 

[kenmac]

Are you talking about the line crossing under the driveway?If so, you could install a the gas line in a pvc casing. If your line were to develop a leak you could cut the line at one end pull it out make repairs or replace with a new line & reinstall the new line through the casing & reconnect it when you get to the other side of the concrete.I do this all the time to keep me or someone from going back & breaking concrete to repair a leak.Good luck. What size generator? water cooled or air cooled?

 

[techman]

If you don't have heating oil in your area, off-road diesel is the same, at about the same price.

paul

 

[Junkman]

Around here, concrete is running $85 per yard....... asphalt is running about $100 per ton installed. I can't tell you how to estimate the number of tons of asphalt you will need, but I can tell you that usually they put down a 3" base coat and then a 2" top coat if it is going to see heavy service. All must go over a good solid base of crushed rock or dense gravel. Now matter which, it will put a bid dent in the budget. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[OkeeDon]

<font color="blue">My land has no road frontage. Access to the houose is via a driveway that will be about 800'. If budget permits, we plan to have the entire length paved. Ideally, concrete the whole way. May have to use asphalt for most of the length and reserve the concrete for the area closest to the house. A rough estimate, including turnarounds, parking and driveway would be about 12,000 sq. ft. of concrete if I make the driveway 12 ft wide. Whats that come out to? 148 yards? Any idea what the pricetag of that would be? </font>

$15K to $20K? Figuring the cost of concrete plus the cost of forming it plus the cost of floating it -- could easily go to $30K, depending on labor costs.

I have two primary reasons for not paving. First, our county adjusts the asssessed value for taxes based on the type of driveway -- paving = big increase, shell rock (or gravel or whatever your local stable aggregate is) = no increase. Same with fencing; if you have a wire field fence, no increase; add some boards, and the increase is way out of proportion with the cost. I guess the county equates so-called "fanciness" with "rich and deserves to be soaked."

Second, the total length of our driveway will also be about 800' (although that goes past the house, past the barn, and on to my daughter's property next door). It's going to cost about $3,000 just for my shell rock; I plan to put the paving budget into the whole-house generator system (which the tax assessors probably won't be aware of).

 

[Junkman]

A few years ago, I questioned the assessment of my home with the tax assessor. I commented that I lived on a dirt road. She said that dirt roads were more desirable since they gave the home a country atmosphere. I asked if that meant that the same home on a paved road would be taxed less. She said no, but it would be the same. Then I asked if they assessed for paving...... she thought for a moment and knew where this was going. Her reply was no..... I paved the road that year and the assessment remained the same. Otherwise, I believe that it would have gone up in value. Don't know what will happen now that she has retired and the re-evaluation is in the process this summer. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Our method of taxation is messed up. People are penalized for improving the land. People are rewarded with low taxes for not utilizing the land to its full potential. If everyone on the block builds new homes, the value of the vacant land goes up because it is being withheld from use. If all land were taxed at its full market value without regard for the improvement, then people would have no reason to withhold land from improvement. This would be the fair way to taxes to be determined. Don't penalize people for improvements, penalize people that withhold the land from those that would put it to use. Don't pay large corporations for not producing on farm land, allowing it to become overgrown with trees.

 

[40Kchicks]

I think a propane generator is a good way to go. They will be more expensive to run but it sounds like this is going to be for a backup system and not prime power. Chances are good that you won’t put that many hours on the generator each year. I have read somewhere that a propane generator will last a long time and is very easy on maintenance because the propane is so clean burning.

I agree with junkman that an automatic transfer switch is not needed for a home system unless someone or something in that home is depending on power for life and death reasons. Don’t get me wrong they are nice but I just don’t see that they are worth the extra cost. I have 85KW onan propane generator and 400 amp auto transfer switch for my chicken ranch but those bird lives definitely depend on constant power.

I think you will find that 500gal tanks are more standard than 1000 gallon tanks. We have 4 500 gallon tanks for the barns and one 250 gallon tank for the generator. If I remember right my big generator (using at 50KW) will run for about 50 hours on those 250 gallons. The rule of thumb for generators is about 1 gallon per hour per 10KW. Diesels are a little more efficient and gas a little less. What I’m getting to is that you will probably be fine with one 500 gallon tank. For added margin add a 250 gallon tank or if you want overkill get two 500 gallon tanks. Ideally they should be plumbed together with valving so that you can draw from either tank.

These are just some observations from my experience.

Eric

 

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> you could install a the gas line in a pvc casing. If your line were to develop a leak you could cut the line at one end pull it out make repairs or replace with a new line & reinstall the new line through the casing & reconnect it when you get to the other side </font>

Another good idea.

<font color="blue"> What size generator? water cooled or air cooled? </font>

Don't know yet as I haven't researched brands / models enough to comment. Size will depend on whether I decide to restrict power to critical things or power the whole house when the electricity goes out. I'm early in the planning stages so I have much homework to do.

Thanks for the PVC suggestion.

 

[bmac]

Thanks, Paul. Yeah, I know they are essentially the same. I've just never been in a position to check on whether or not there is anyone locally who delivers diesel fuel. Never had the occassion to ask.

 

[bmac]

Junkman and Don,

Using Junkman's figure of $85/yd and my rough estimate of 148 yds, that comes to about $12,500 in concrete alone. As Don points out, this will be labor intensive to form and float this much concrete and I imagine it could easily double the materials cost. So $25K to $30K may be a good estimate.

Last year, I talked to an asphalt man who gave me an off-the-record ballpark estimate of $10K for an 800 ft drive, but I seem to recall he figured this on 10 ft wide. I would like a 12 ft wide drive.

So, maybe if I combine the 2 materials I can get this done for closer to $15K to $18K.

Although my 14 year old son doesn't ride non-motoized vehicles very much anymore, my 8 year old daughter still has a few years of bike riding to do and a paved surface is obviously better for that. Once off the property, the county road would be too dangerous for bike riding. That is one feature of our subdivision I will miss - safe roads for riding bikes.

Also, though I don't worry too much about keeping the dust off my truck, my wife likes to keep her minivan clean. That would be difficult with a dusty gravel drive.

So, once again, I'll just let the budget decide. If we don't control costs in other areas, we'll have to make compromises in things like driveway, generators, etc. I'll remind my bride of this as she picks out flooring, tile, harware, lights, plumbing, etc. In all fairness to her, she has really tried to find ways to control costs in these areas. Its just more fun to blame her for cost overruns. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Junkman]

In the last 3 weeks, asphalt has gone up $10 per ton. If the oil prices don't stabilize soon, then they will be delivering asphalt by armored truck instead of dump trucks. Seems that everyone knows that inflation is back except the government. My take home pay won't even pay for enough gas to take me home... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[bmac]

As always, Junkman, you are right on top of things. I didn't even think about the petro-asphalt connection. Probably has doubled that estimate from last year. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif