Rant time !!! Bureaucrats at it again .... New home build

[Navvet]

A little background, My wife and I retired from the Navy. Me, early retirement at 17 years, her 20 years. Our plan was to get some land, semi rural, but close enough to family and bigger cities to be convenient. We ended up with 20 acres at the tail end of a 1.5 mile private gravel road (good excuse for a tractor). Lots of trees, wildlife, and privacy.

When we bought this place, our intention was to live in the single wide that was on the property for a few years until we found a house we would like to spend the rest of our retirement in. A few years into our plan I was diagnosed with cancer (Sadam's / Chemical Ali's revenge).

Now that the medical issues have settled out, we decided it's time to build the house.

We have been looking at one of the (upscale) modular home builders in the area and settled on a plan. I made the preliminary order for the house just before Christmas and today I went for the Planning and Zoning permit.

As Gomer used to say ... Surprise, Surprise, Surprise .....

Our county approved a new (2012) Watershed Stormwater Management regulations. I am a firm believer in managing construction activities and stormwater run-off. I know there can be significant repercussions to mis-management, but I do believe everything should be properly proportional.

The regulation covers any development / re-development / land disturbance after mid 2012 and limits land disturbance for residential zoned properties. Any residential property, 1 acre, 10 acres, 30 acres, (the size does not matter) is limited to 1/2 acre (21,780 sq ft) of CUMULATIVE land disturbance. This includes things like driveways, septic systems, digging in your yard, etc. If I wish to exceed the 1/2 acre I am required to hire an "approved storm water engineer" to provide an assessment and stormwater management plan as well as a $1,000 escrow deposited for the counties storm water review.

According to the planning folks, even a 2 car metal carport does not require a building permit but does require zoning permit.

I'm not sure how big my septic will end up being, but I built a 1000 sq ft garage 2 years ago and the house / deck will be in excess of 4500 sq ft ..... I'm starting to run out of space on my 20 acres.

End Rant ....

 

[MossRoad]

I don't think that has to do with bureaucrats, but more likely came about from poorly planned developments that had too many houses on too little land to support proper septic, and groundwater/water well contamination starts.

We have similar things going on here. Back in the late 70's through the 90's they were slapping up housing developments left and right. Pretty densely packed. Now many of their septic systems are failing and their wells have human poop in them. There's no additional land to put in replacement septic fields. So now they're looking at forces municipal sewers and water.

Then they also found lots of silt runoff during construction, so now everyone has to put up silt skirts when building houses.

And many of the housing developments flooded after we had several 100 year rains in just two years, so now there's stricter drainage rules.

So take some comfort that it's not just your area.

 

[oosik]

Moss Road Had the exact same thing happen in Anchorage. Large subdivisions, small lots - no public sewerage or public water systems within miles. WoW - the expense those folks had to foot to have the public utilities extended to serve their homes.

Development without adequate planning.

 

[TheMan419]

The thing is as usual the government solves one problem by screwing over everyone. Certainly the issue Moss raises is important and needed solved. It does not need to be applied to a 20 acre parcel though.

Moss - the silt barrier is what I am seeing them put around houses that looks like a ring of sand bags?

 

[Streetcar]

The thing is as usual the government solves one problem by screwing over everyone. Certainly the issue Moss raises is important and needed solved. It does not need to be applied to a 20 acre parcel though.

Moss - the silt barrier is what I am seeing them put around houses that looks like a ring of sand bags?

The same problems can occur on one or twenty acres, but twenty gives you cheaper corrections if original installation is wrong

 

[Navvet]

I agree with the necessary planning, but, limiting some one with 20 acres to the same 21,000 sqft of land disturbance as someone in a subdivision with 1 acre lots ??? That is a bit excessive. I have a garage, workshop, and a house. I want to put in a 1,000 sqft barn but the land disturbance total with the area of the septic (and it's planned repair area) included is pushing my properties limit.

According to them, I can't uproot a tree without a zoning permit and including the amount of land disturbed.

 

[newbury]

The thing is as usual the government solves one problem by screwing over everyone. Certainly the issue Moss raises is important and needed solved. It does not need to be applied to a 20 acre parcel though.

Moss - the silt barrier is what I am seeing them put around houses that looks like a ring of sand bags?

The government has to make the law so it applies to everyone, then allow exceptions.

A little background, My wife and I retired from the Navy. Me, early retirement at 17 years, her 20 years. Our plan was to get some land, semi rural, but close enough to family and bigger cities to be convenient. We ended up with 20 acres at the tail end of a 1.5 mile private gravel road (good excuse for a tractor). Lots of trees, wildlife, and privacy.

When we bought this place, our intention was to live in the single wide that was on the property for a few years until we found a house we would like to spend the rest of our retirement in. A few years into our plan I was diagnosed with cancer (Sadam's / Chemical Ali's revenge).

Now that the medical issues have settled out, we decided it's time to build the house.

We have been looking at one of the (upscale) modular home builders in the area and settled on a plan. I made the preliminary order for the house just before Christmas and today I went for the Planning and Zoning permit.

As Gomer used to say ... Surprise, Surprise, Surprise .....

Our county approved a new (2012) Watershed Stormwater Management regulations. I am a firm believer in managing construction activities and stormwater run-off. I know there can be significant repercussions to mis-management, but I do believe everything should be properly proportional.

The regulation covers any development / re-development / land disturbance after mid 2012 and limits land disturbance for residential zoned properties. Any residential property, 1 acre, 10 acres, 30 acres, (the size does not matter) is limited to 1/2 acre (21,780 sq ft) of CUMULATIVE land disturbance. This includes things like driveways, septic systems, digging in your yard, etc. If I wish to exceed the 1/2 acre I am required to hire an "approved storm water engineer" to provide an assessment and stormwater management plan as well as a $1,000 escrow deposited for the counties storm water review.

According to the planning folks, even a 2 car metal carport does not require a building permit but does require zoning permit.

I'm not sure how big my septic will end up being, but I built a 1000 sq ft garage 2 years ago and the house / deck will be in excess of 4500 sq ft ..... I'm starting to run out of space on my 20 acres.

End Rant ....

You don't say how long you've been there, but refer to the law as "new (2012)". Was the law there when you bought?

I'm sure your familiar with the fact that water flows downhill, there have been many threads on here about people having problems with stormwater coming from neighbors at higher elevations.

In Virginia I've two houses in Alexandria (dense suburbs). On one both of my suburban neighbors pipe their sump pumps so they spew on my land, but they don't care. My yard fills up like a shallow swimming pool. But at least it drains in a few days. The other the house is on a narrow half acre about at the peak of a very gentle hill, and the soil is marine clay. A house flipper bought the half acre 60 yr old house and property adjacent down hill from mine. He put on a 24x30 addition, which required digging out a massive amount of dirt for the foundation. He dumped it all on the back part of his lot, raising it by several inches, putting the back half of my lot under about an inch of water after EVERY rain. And it wouldn't drain. So it was a swamp all one summer.
I took my backhoe, dug a ditch that stopped at the property line. Heavy rain occured and flooded the far ends of our lots and cut a new channel on his lot.

 

[Clint S]

Just split the property into 2 lots and then you get 2 exemptions. Here we had to split property for tax reasons. Built house on the farm and taxes went through the roof because of the ''structures'' on the property. Split the house from the barn and now it is considered an ''unoccupied'' lot and our taxes went down on both. They are 65% of what they were together

 

[Navvet]

You don't say how long you've been there, but refer to the law as "new (2012)". Was the law there when you bought?

I bought this place 21 years ago. I have talked to a couple of builders and what sticks in my craw is this was passed without any notifications. Just one day it was there.

Just split the property into 2 lots and then you get 2 exemptions. Here we had to split property for tax reasons. Built house on the farm and taxes went through the roof because of the ''structures'' on the property. Split the house from the barn and now it is considered an ''unoccupied'' lot and our taxes went down on both. They are 65% of what they were together

Unfortunately, one of the new laws I do know about limits private roads. My road has 10 nice lots on it, 3 to 7 acres with my 20 at the end.

Now, if you put in a private road with 4 or more lots it is considered a subdivision. it must be paved, 40' wide with 10' shaped drainage on either side. There is also something about streetlights in the rules.

We are currently grandfathered on our little road so to split my property I would be required to bring my 1.5 mile road to subdivision specs.

 

[s219]

Similar situation for us with "resource protection areas" that are intended to minimize erosion and sedimentation affecting the Chesapeake Bay watershed. It's a major pain in the butt. It came about since previous generations abused the land for farming and real estate activities, clearing right to the waterline with little or no management of runoff and stormwater, so a lot of sediment ended up in the rivers and bays. Now people doing any new land development pay the price. I have learned to suck it up and be a good steward of the land, which sits on my conscience better anyhow. The cost and the regulations never feel right but I have learned how to work within the system. Sad thing is, I probably would be careful on my land anyhow, without the need for nanny treatment.

 

[Oldoak]

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are "good stewards of the land" but do not have the financial means and cannot afford to "suck it up" to improve their living conditions due to all the bureaucratic red tape and new regulations forced upon them in today's world. It's like, punish everybody for the misdeeds of a few! Plus a money making scheme with the abhorrently high fees for so many different permits.

And taxes? A few years ago we decided to save a little on our property taxes by tearing down a couple of dilapidated outbuildings which we did not use but were being taxed on. Well, we tore them down and reseeded the whole area with native grasses.

When we went to our taxing authority to have them taken off our tax rolls, our taxes actually were raised. Their reason being is that we improved the property.

 

[Navvet]

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are "good stewards of the land" but do not have the financial means and cannot afford to "suck it up" to improve their living conditions due to all the bureaucratic red tape and new regulations forced upon them in today's world. It's like, punish everybody for the misdeeds of a few! Plus a money making scheme with the abhorrently high fees for so many different permits.

Amen Brother !!!

 

[MossRoad]

The thing is as usual the government solves one problem by screwing over everyone. Certainly the issue Moss raises is important and needed solved. It does not need to be applied to a 20 acre parcel though.

Moss - the silt barrier is what I am seeing them put around houses that looks like a ring of sand bags?

It looks like a 2' fence made of fabric. They have to trench in a little slit at the bottom and stake it upright every so many feet. It's supposed to let water through and keep the silt in if there's surface water movement, like a decent rain.

 

[MossRoad]

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are "good stewards of the land" but do not have the financial means and cannot afford to "suck it up" to improve their living conditions due to all the bureaucratic red tape and new regulations forced upon them in today's world. It's like, punish everybody for the misdeeds of a few! Plus a money making scheme with the abhorrently high fees for so many different permits.

And taxes? A few years ago we decided to save a little on our property taxes by tearing down a couple of dilapidated outbuildings which we did not use but were being taxed on. Well, we tore them down and reseeded the whole area with native grasses.

When we went to our taxing authority to have them taken off our tax rolls, our taxes actually were raised. Their reason being is that we improved the property.

Now you know why some folks keep junk all over the place....

 

[MossRoad]

As for 20 acres VS 1 acre.... let's say your 20 acres slopes to a watershed. You install your septic incorrectly, and give everyone downstream some nice poop water to deal with.

Or, 19 of your 20 acres is swamp. Or high water table. etc....

 

[buckeyefarmer]

"It's like, punish everybody for the misdeeds of a few!"

That's what gov't does.

 

[TheMan419]

As for 20 acres VS 1 acre.... let's say your 20 acres slopes to a watershed. You install your septic incorrectly, and give everyone downstream some nice poop water to deal with.

Or, 19 of your 20 acres is swamp. Or high water table. etc....

But that is why you have variation possible.

The septic is (or should be) inspected when installed and you have to have a permit with a drawing of what is being done. So that has nothing to do with the issue.

Regarding 20 ac v. 1 ac, yes it would depend on if it was 19 ac of swamp and 1 ac of "good" land. However the OP seems to suggest there is ZERO deviation. You get 1/2 ac of disturbance. Period. If the two lots are identical other than one is 1 ac and the other is 20 ac this is ridiculous. I guess it just means the house is going to have a full basement and two above ground stories so that you get more sq feet for the disturbance.

Also if you are building a pole barn with dirt floor can you argue the only ground disturbed is where the holes are dug for the posts?

 

[jfh28]

if I understand what you're saying correctly.......the rules do not prevent you from disturbing over 1/2 acre it only is saying if you do then you need to submit a storm water management plan......so yes more hoops to jump through and $ for engineer but doesn't stop you from utilizing the 20 acres.......storm water management is based on the permeability of your soil and that improvements reduce the sq ft of available soil to soak up the rains......how they came up with the 1/2 acre limitation could be from the soil conditions in the area or the history of flooding or it could be completely arbitrary.......the advantage you have with 20 acres is that you may very well be able to do all the things you want without having to do anything for storm management as you have lots of land area to soak up the rain.......whereas a person with only 1 acre doesn't have the extra land area to absorb the runoff from the new impervious areas........so the 20 acres is to your advantage.......all depending on your soil types and perc......I agree that all the rules made don't always make a lot of sense and seem over doing it......a lot of towns are forced to impose things like this to control over development......they can not make rules only for big developments and then not apply them to everyone else or the developers will sue them.......and most likely win.......sorry to say but a lot of regulations are driven by the fear of lawsuits.....and developers have deeper pockets and better lawyers then the towns do.......if you have a plan for all you want to build and do on your property I'd sit down with a civil engineer and see what they have to say......better to get one plan approved at one time then to have to keep going back with every new building you want to put up.......Jack

 

[MossRoad]

.....
I'm not sure how big my septic will end up being, but I built a 1000 sq ft garage 2 years ago and the house / deck will be in excess of 4500 sq ft ..... I'm starting to run out of space on my 20 acres.

End Rant ....

There's 21,789 square feet in half an acre.
You've used/allotted 5500 so far.
You have 16,260 left.....

 

[wagne223]

I bought this place 21 years ago. I have talked to a couple of builders and what sticks in my craw is this was passed without any notifications. Just one day it was there.




Unfortunately, one of the new laws I do know about limits private roads. My road has 10 nice lots on it, 3 to 7 acres with my 20 at the end.

Now, if you put in a private road with 4 or more lots it is considered a subdivision. it must be paved, 40' wide with 10' shaped drainage on either side. There is also something about streetlights in the rules.

We are currently grandfathered on our little road so to split my property I would be required to bring my 1.5 mile road to subdivision specs.

The government never notifies anyone of a new law, rule or ordinance.
Not arguing right or wrong, just giving you some info....

Every municipality has a process for implementing new regulations. The one common thing is it cannot be done in private but they dont have to advertise it.

The leaders of the municipality hold public meetings to present, discuss and vote on new regulations and many other issues.

We have a county council of elected officials and the city I live in has a city council.

They both hold monthly meetings where this stuff is brought up.

Very few residents are involved or comment on proposals or issues.
In a city of 20 thousand only 15 people show up to the meetings.

We are fortunate in that the council is required to post the minutes of the meetings online.
So we just read the minutes and check the agenda on meetings to know if we need to go.

If you want to stay up to date, you have to get involved and seek out the information.

Local elections are very important to your daily life and attending meetings is the best way to get to know your representatives.

You never know, you could have convinced the council to exempt properties over a certain acreage or done like our city and use a percentage to specify how much ground you can cover.

Being in Central FL, we have major issues with storm water management.
So I am well versed in the item you are talking about.