Re-fills: Is there an easier way than two 5-gal diesel jugs??

[SteveInMD]

Try ASTM F976-08 and F852-08. California EPA also lists the colors as Red, Yellow, and Blue.

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards, however standards are not the same as regulations. There would need to be a rule somewhere saying when and who needed to comply with the standard.

Where does California list these colors?

FTG-05

I don't see what where the confusion is.

That was quite obvious.

ASTM applies to manufacturers, not users, of portable fuel cans. Hence, someone who makes a fuel can to ASTM specs has to meet the color (and other) requirements for a portable fuel can.

Wrong. If you want to make your own fuel container you have to comply with ASTM per the DOT. Then you will have to submit the container and specifications to your state approving agency for certification and if you meet the DOT, EPA, etc., requirements you can use it.

Also for me if I use the 55 gallon drum for my tractors fuel I do so at my own risk as my state laws do not allow it no matter what color or material. Other users should check there local and state laws concerning fuel storage on there properties.

Users can use whatever they want or can get (like military fuel cans).

This just isn't worth answering. Don't forget to save your used milk jugs.

The question, from one poster here, was where are the requirements that state that he, as a user, has to use a specific color fuel can for a specific fuel.

DOT requires portable fuel containers to comply with ASTM standards period. That means, red, yellow, blue.

Absent state regulations, there are no national requirements, USDOT doesn't have them - that I've found, if you have, post the USDOT regulation - and ASTM doesn't apply - for users.

First and for the last time, ASTM applies if you are going to make or use your own fuel container and for manufacturers of resale containers.

Every state has regulations governing the use of approved containers and I suggest that you call yours or look it up. The states regulations all/most come from the the federal regulations.

49 CFR is one of your national governing requirement on fuel containers by the DOT. Also do not forget the EPA has requirements as well and so does OSHA in their 1910 and 1926 series publications. For the purpose of this thread the PFC's under 5 gallons are not governed by OSHA but by DOT but the storage containers that are larger can be cover under many agencies, DOT, OSHA, EPA, and your state.


Now clear?

It has been crystal for me, but I hope it is for you now.

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards. Standards don't equal regulations.

OSHA rule apply to the work place, not the home. 49 CFR covers all transportation including pipelines and railroads. Exactly which part would apply in this case? I still haven't seen a specific reference (a CFR reference would look something like...49 CFR 101.134(c)).

I can't say absolutely that no rules exist, but we can't have a meaningful debate unless someone can produce an actual rule.

 

[rd_macgregor]

I'm not keen on the 5-gal containers, either, especially since the fuel filler on my DK45 is right in the middle of the hood.
I'm thinking of converting my home heating system to geothermal electric heat pump. If I do this, I will have a surplus heating fuel oil tank (300+gal).
Would it work to set this up as a fueling station for my tractor?
I'm not a farmer, so my CUT use would likely take a couple of years to consume as much as would fit in that oil tank. Would I likely run into condensation problems? Or, maybe, fuel degradation issues?
Thanks,
BOB

 

[LBrown59]

I'm not keen on the 5-gal containers, either, especially since the fuel filler on my DK45 is right in the middle of the hood.
I'm thinking of converting my home heating system to geothermal electric heat pump. If I do this, I will have a surplus heating fuel oil tank (300+gal).
1*Would it work to set this up as a fueling station for my tractor?
I'm not a farmer, so my CUT use would likely take a couple of years to consume as much as would fit in that oil tank.
2*Would I likely run into condensation problems? Or, maybe, fuel degradation issues?
Thanks,
BOB

1*Why aren't you already using the tank and the fuel in it for your tractor??
2*Why would you have these issues with any thing you used the fuel for ???:confused2:

 

[jcummins]

I have a diesel truck with an aux tank. One of those small drill type rotary pumps, hoses each end, and I fill my ZD326 that way. NO more diesel cans. IF...I ever have the money I may very well trade my Teryx for a diesel UTV...just to put an end to the gas cans too. It is insanity what this do gooder government does to us.

 

[rd_macgregor]

1*Why aren't you already using the tank and the fuel in it for your tractor??
2*Why would you have these issues with any thing you used the fuel for ???:confused2:

Right now the tank is in the basement and it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank. Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

 

[NH33]

Right now the tank is in the basement and it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank. Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

An outdoor tank is subject to much more severe temperature changes than an indoor tank. I wouldn't think condensation would be a factor for an indoor tank. As long as you filter the fuel I think it should be just fine.

I considered putting a Fill Rite pump on the side of my house plumbed into the heating oil tank. This seems like a good option, but I ended up buying another tank for other reasons.

 

[LBrown59]

1* it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank.
2*Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

1*Is there any reason why you can't hook up an electric 12 volt pump to the tank ?
2*You would need a water blocker filter in case of condensation.

Another thing you could do is build one of these using 1 or 2 plastic drums in the 15 30 or 55 gallon size .

 

[LBrown59]

An outdoor tank is subject to much more severe temperature changes than an indoor tank. I wouldn't think condensation would be a factor for an indoor tank.
10*As long as you filter the fuel I think it should be just fine.
12*I considered putting a Fill Rite pump on the side of my house plumbed into the heating oil tank

10*That's sorta what I told him.

12*Every body that heats their house with this and owns a tractor should have a pump plumbed into their heating oil tank.~ ~ ~ ~ No sense going to the gas station and paying more for the same thing while getting charged for taxes you don't owe.

 

[PCABE5]

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards, however standards are not the same as regulations. There would need to be a rule somewhere saying when and who needed to comply with the standard.

Where does California list these colors?

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards. Standards don't equal regulations.

OSHA rule apply to the work place, not the home. 49 CFR covers all transportation including pipelines and railroads. Exactly which part would apply in this case? I still haven't seen a specific reference (a CFR reference would look something like...49 CFR 101.134(c)).

I can't say absolutely that no rules exist, but we can't have a meaningful debate unless someone can produce an actual rule.

California Air Resources Board - CP 501.

In today's government standards and regulations blurr. The federal government stopped some years ago writting/renewing regulations that are now covered by industry. I enforce ASTM, ASME, ISO, OSHA, etc. on manufacturers everyday. They either comply or they don't sell. The government does have rules on the use of commercial standards. For example, procurements are not to write regulations for items that are governed by commercial industry standards. The only exception is if the standard does not fully address the requirements and even then those are usually just written as an addendum and not a regulation.

The other thing is we all need to realize is where the industry standards came from. Thats right, the federal government. Mil-I and Mil-Q were the basis for ISO 9000. Another example, ASME, ANSI, SAE and ASTM have taken over most of the governments standards and made them theirs. Why, cost savings, as the government doesn't have to pay to store, write, or update any of these anymore.

Also my reference to OSHA was to show that in work areas they use DOT standards for containers 5 gallons or less. New cans also must comply with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, i.e. child proof containers and the EPA is regulating the emmissions from these cans that is why the new ones have no vent and seal shut.

SteveInMd send my a pm.

 

[PCABE5]

Here is an interesting tidbit, I looked up the current military spec for jerry cans and the construction of these cans uses ASTM F852.