Right of Way question...

[Richard]

I am going to presume the answer is "yes, the public has access" but here's the setup/question...

Just for kicks & grins, let's take your front or back yard (and presume it's large enough for this)

Your local county has a ROW over your land....has a gravel "road" there for access.....later paves it so now it is as nice as your nearby paved roads.

County has a 25' from center ROW for this and today, this is now a normal paved road by anyone's definition.

The pavement is for example, 13' wide so from the edge of the road you have a 12' shoulder.

Since the road was put over "your" land and it's now a county road..... who all has access to this shoulder?

Is the shoulder "only" for the county to use as they see fit? Can the shoulder be used by anyone since this person is on the "public" road?

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is does the county having a ROW over your property mean the general PUBLIC has that same ROW since it's now a public road or, would it still be limited to/for county access and the public in general only has "rights" to use the paved road?


Back story:

I live adjacent to TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority....which by the way, isn't the worlds greatest neighbor to have) None the less.... Years ago, when TVA came in to take various lands for their lakes, this property here was a casualty of that (wife's family farm). When TVA took the land, rather than them saying that "their" land is everything left of the road centerline and my wife's family farm was everything to the RIGHT of the roads centerline..... some dufas must of sat in his office, took a straight edge and simply struck a line....a very straight line and everything to the left is theirs and everything to the right is "ours"

That is fine as long as you might have a straight road....but our road is very curvy so now, there are places where TVA own's the right side of the road (our farm is on the right side of the road and this border is about a mile long) So, there are places where TVA owns "our" side of the road and there are places where we own THEIR side of the road. The line is straight but the road wanders left/right making it goofy.

So today, you drive down this road and there are vehicles parked on "our" side of the road..... BUT, they are on or within the 25' ROW that the county has for their road (so yes, there are now THREE entities involved on the same land!!!!)

For people who are parked on the left side of the road (as long as they're not on 'our' left side land), I don't care. For those who are parked on OUR side of the road (presuming they are on our section and not TVA's section) but they're still on the county ROW..... are they fine & dandy or are they trespassing?

My presumption as stated above is yes, they're within their rights as long as they stay on the ROW... but then I get to thinking.... I always thought the ROW was only for the person who had the ROW (county) and not every Tom Dick & Harry.... then I go back on my self....yeah, but it's a paved road so there is the expectation that it's a county road...

and around in circles I go..... so I thought I'd ask to see if anyone has any idea how that unravels? In the end it's not going to matter as the road is certainly going nowhere.

 

[ovrszd]

I run a road grader for the Township I live in. I frequently do maintenance on 50 miles of Township roadways. I occasionally rebuild roadways which require more than 40' access. I have a few times built new roads where there wasn't one before.

Our ROW is 40'. Our wandering roadways have nothing to do with property boundaries.

For example my farm is 3/4 mile long with a Township road running thru it. North half was built around 1920. I own land on the West side of this roadway. My neighbor owns the land on the East side of this roadway. The Center of the Roadway is our legal property boundaries. This roadway is very straight.

The South half of this roadway I built in approximately 2000. At the last quarter mile of this roadway I own on the West side of the roadway. Another neighbor owns on the East side. Rather than argue with the neighbor about giving land and having to relocate the existing fence with two fences I built the roadway on me. So we have one fence and it's on our adjoining property boundary.

We've agreed that the Township or whatever controlling entity you have has the right to maintain the roadway within their ROW. We expect them to do that.

To your concern. I'll just speak for me. I don't consider anyone trespassing that parks on the shoulders of the roadway that runs thru my property. It might aggravate me a bit if they park there when the shoulders are soft and muddy. I mow both sides of my roadway. But I wouldn't consider them trespassing. I interpret the ROW as accessible to the general public.

 

[Diggin It]

In my view the purpose of a shoulder is to be off the road instead of on it blocking traffic when broke down or parked. It's basically public access. If you're having a specific problem, maybe the county could put up 'no parking' or 'no standing' signs?

 

[RNeumann]

Read the easement. It should be with title. It will define ROW over what you are calling your land. My gut says the public has access- but that specific easement may say otherwise. But in general the easement for the road wouldn’t differ based on the number of feet from the centerline.

 

[zzvyb6]

Look at your property deed description. It should define the width of an Easement or ROW for the road. If it's 40 feet, that's everything 20 feet on each side of the center-line of the roadway.

 

[mike48130]

These things always concern me because of the shady lawyers out there. If there is a straight line and ROW to each side of it, they can make the road as windy as they want inside of it. The issue I would have is what happens when someone gets hurt or in an accident on the road/shoulder that is actually on your property? Are you responsible? It's a county maintained road on private property? A good lawyer will bankrupt you trying to answer that question.

I think you have a hard battle if you try to do anything. It sounds like it has been there for a long time, so they probably have some rights to it now no matter what the paper says. I would look to see what the county says about it, and verify you have no responsibility for the road and the shoulder. It might be wise to give easement or ROW to the county for the sections on your property to remove the liability from you. But I would be pissed if I had to do that myself.

Or tear out the shoulder on your property and the county can put up "no shoulder signs" like they do on so many other roads.

 

[Richard]

In my view the purpose of a shoulder is to be off the road instead of on it blocking traffic when broke down or parked. It's basically public access. If you're having a specific problem, maybe the county could put up 'no parking' or 'no standing' signs?

Not to drag out my questions.....but, this has been done. Sheriff said he'd make the entire road a "no parking" road. County came out marked entire road with no parking signs.... TVA at the same time, agreed that they would build/install not one but TWO parking lots on their property (we get a lot of hikers and hunters out here).... (another long backstory I'll spare you but we've had tons of issues out here over the years with people dumping trash, a dead body, killing (our) dogs and when the dogs were killed, that made it personal so I started fighting/pushing back)


Anyway...

Mysteriously, all the no parking signs have disappeared just prior to hunting season (several years ago) so now, though "it's been marked" no parking.... the signs are gone (I know where they are, the perps didn't take them, they simply tossed them into the woods)

So, if YOU happened to have a casual sunday drive out here....you would not know that the road was marked no parking....and you might park with the innocent belief that you're not doing anything wrong and I'd agree with that.

TVA went so far at a certain location to put a gate there (to block some of these same people from driving onto TVA's "public" land) AND in addition to a gate, there is a row of boulders there in front of the gate to further block the area. Just the other day, there was a guy (parked on our side which is what brings this to my mind)

I mentioned that 'this' side of the road was private property and THAT side was TVA (basically telling him he can park over there but, not over here)

He said he was an attorney.....specialized in real estate.... how wide was the ROW? and he's got a tape measure to make sure he's within the ROW. (he likely was). He interestingly went on to say that he USED to park "over there" where the gate & rocks are....and he took issue that the area was blocked which is why he parked over here. He pointed out that that property over there (blocked) was public property and he is allowed to park where he wants.....but now for those items blocking that goal.

I'm scratching my head....TVA owns the land. It might be for the greater public use however they can still control access to their land (they have put up "NO Motorized Vehicles" signs.....oh, and guess what.....? those also get ripped down)

So this is simply an issue that's never going to go away and I accept that. However, lest it totally engulf us, I keep pushing back on it where I can to try to at least, minimize the issues knowing that they'll never go away. The honorable folks will park in the parking areas and go about their business. The "special" people will park where they please and at times, WILL have up to half of their vehicles ON the roadway which can impede traffic.


That said, it is worthy of me to have an idea of what the rules really are so I'm not out spouting off to someone and I'm in the wrong. I don't want to fall into that situation.

So.... my solution the other day? After Mr. Know the Law left.... I moved two 30' dead trees to that location so it's now obstructed and like TVA has the rocks, blocked! He can walk the 500 feet down the road to the built in parking area made specifically for his needs. Oh, and he drove about 50 miles to get here (his tags showed him not living in the adjacent county but the county on the OTHER side of the adjacent county)

 

[Richard]

If there is a straight line and ROW to each side of it, they can make the road as windy as they want inside of it.

Most everyone here just scratches their head wondering why they didn't simply make the center line of the road the marker for TVA's land.... the straight line is really screwy.

 

[Jstpssng]

Look at your property deed description. It should define the width of an Easement or ROW for the road. If it's 40 feet, that's everything 20 feet on each side of the center-line of the roadway.

Not necessarily. If the ROW is 40 feet yet the road is only 20’, it may not be centered.

 

[mike48130]

Most everyone here just scratches their head wondering why they didn't simply make the center line of the road the marker for TVA's land.... the straight line is really screwy.

Probably because to make it match the road takes work. Anyone can draw a straight line, but to put all curves into a legal description and set the markers takes work, and who the **** wants to do that.