Right to repair - we WIN!!

crazyal

Super Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Messages
7,688
Location
Northern Vermont
Tractor
Kubota, Case, Deere
I don't think anyone is expecting this. However, if I am operating my tractor and it stops running or begins running poorly, I would like to take out my Bluetooth dongle and plug it into the ODB-II port and use my phone to see "what is going on with my tractor" at some level. Or even a dash display of a basic code that I can look up on my phone to get at least a hint of where to start looking. Is it just a loose connection? As mentioned earlier, this can often be the difference between walking back to the barn or driving back the barn for a closer look where there are tools, shade and better lighting.
Yet what happens now with cars is something like this. A code saying an O2 sensor is reading out of range and the backyard mechanic buys a new O2 sensor where as a pro looks at the data to see what's going on. Unless you know what the data is telling you people are just going to shotgun parts.

The likes of Deere's are going to care one bit since they will gladly sell anyone parts even if they don't fix the problem. The concept of being able to repair your equipment died when equipment became so advanced that the normal guy needs a degree to understand how it works.
 

bearthebruce

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
295
Location
Property is in Floyd County VA
Tractor
'05 Massey Ferguson MF1533
Yet what happens now with cars is something like this. A code saying an O2 sensor is reading out of range and the backyard mechanic buys a new O2 sensor where as a pro looks at the data to see what's going on. Unless you know what the data is telling you people are just going to shotgun parts.
We live this everyday. Shade Tree mechanics buy our tool and think that because the tool mentioned a reading on a particular part being out of spec, the part is bad. The truth is that the reading is out of spec and the status of the part is unknown. The wise user of our tool looks at the information given and then begins a process by which they discern what has actually gone bad. Sometimes it is the part. Most often it is wiring.

But I don't agree that an aftermarket tool is wrong. Its just like the gun issue.. is it wrong to allow people to have guns when some misuse them? The obvious answer is no. Knowledgeable users should be able to use the same tools or equivalent tools that pros use. We sell lots of tools to Shade Tree Enthusiasts.. some learn to use them; some shot gun repair.

As an owner of a machine, I want the option to buy tools and equipment at a reasonable price to repair the machine I purchased if I choose to repair it myself. At the present time, seems that the the price of the tools are out of reach for most tractor owners and information is not readily shared with those owners. That is what "Right to Repair" is all about - having the cost of the tools and information available at "reasonable prices." Establishing what is reasonable is a large part of the argument.
 
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IndyJay

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
495
Location
S.E. Indiana
Tractor
Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
Yet what happens now with cars is something like this. A code saying an O2 sensor is reading out of range and the backyard mechanic buys a new O2 sensor where as a pro looks at the data to see what's going on. Unless you know what the data is telling you people are just going to shotgun parts.

The likes of Deere's are going to care one bit since they will gladly sell anyone parts even if they don't fix the problem. The concept of being able to repair your equipment died when equipment became so advanced that the normal guy needs a degree to understand how it works.
Why does it have to be all or nothing? That is why I wrote "to at least get a hint of where to start looking" instead of writing "what to start buying". There is a big wide area between having absolutely no indication of what the problem is and something magically placing an order online for a replacement part to be delivered just before it fails. The assumption is that people who are fairly good mechinics and can troubleshoot old school tractors are going to be overwhelmed by what the codes are saying and just run out and order new parts because a sensor is registering outside of it's normal parameters. I believe that the same people that could interpret flaky switches and dirty connections systems with the legacy tractors can probably figure out what they need to check when a code is basically telling them the same thing. "Something ain't right, it is related to ...". As I said in an earlier post, a safety lockout old old systems is pretty straightforward... you trace each switch with a meter or test light (or jumper) until you find which one is at fault. Now, the ECU can tell you exactly which switch is holding you out. I think that is potentially a good thing. We will adapt to using the new technology to our advantage, that is if we can get access to it.
 

Oaktree

Elite Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,829
Location
Coös, N.H.
Tractor
Kioti LK3054xs
Why does it have to be all or nothing? That is why I wrote "to at least get a hint of where to start looking" instead of writing "what to start buying". There is a big wide area between having absolutely no indication of what the problem is and something magically placing an order online for a replacement part to be delivered just before it fails. The assumption is that people who are fairly good mechinics and can troubleshoot old school tractors are going to be overwhelmed by what the codes are saying and just run out and order new parts because a sensor is registering outside of it's normal parameters.
You're assuming that all mechanics (shadetree or professional) know how to troubleshoot, and that's not always the case, especially as motor vehicles become more complex. We've all seen dealer mechanics who just throw parts at a piece of equipment, let alone owners trying to DIY repair.

Yes, having the ability to read and interpret codes is a big step forward but it's not going to magically transform a hack into an expert. I wish modern products didn't have to be so complicated, but that's life in the 21st century.
 

bearthebruce

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
295
Location
Property is in Floyd County VA
Tractor
'05 Massey Ferguson MF1533
Yes, having the ability to read and interpret codes is a big step forward but it's not going to magically transform a hack into an expert.
Exactly. And codes do not give a magic bullet to tell what part has failed. With the code and with knowledge of the systems involved, one can design a troubleshooting strategy that arrives at a proper solution. Too many think the scan data is the end all. The "Magic Diagnostic Genie" told me to replace the framise widget but it didn't fix the problem. No, the diagnostic tool told there was an issue with that part but never told what that issue might be.
We've all seen dealer mechanics who just throw parts at a piece of equipment, let alone owners trying to DIY repair.
Yep. Wanna know why? They are taught to "gitterdun" fast. Don't worry if you have to throw more parts at it. On customer pay, we make more money. On warranty, the factory pays. Just "gitterdun".

Often the dealer techs are right out of school, are handed a diagnostic tool and told to follow the instructions on the tool. When the problem lies outside the "engineer designed fault tree", the technician is lost because no one is taking the time to teach the systems.

Todays machines require skills in computers, electronics, mechanics, and hydraulics. It is a lot to ask of a technician. 18 to 24 months of training is suppose to equip a technician to work on these machines? I think not.

Techs who do learn and are the best then get screwed by flat rate pay. The talented techs are given the challenging jobs that take more time than the book says it should take. Their pay is defined by how quicky they can get the job done. The simple jobs which can be completed in book time, go to the lower level techs. The talented tech sees their paycheck shrinking while the less talented tech is paid more doing oil changes. The next step is the talented tech wants out and leaves the dealer for a place that appreciates what they can do.

I talk regularly to automotive tech trainers and they really hate the system in which the young men and women in the auto repair trade must work. There are many trying to change it.

I don't have experience with the Ag dealer technicians. If I had to guess, it is similar for them.

All this leads us back to the "Right to Repair" and the question of who can actually repair these machines. My experience tells me that those who choose to learn will be able to be successful if they have access to the tools and materials. If that were not true, I would not be working for a company that has provided tools and information for 21 years, allowing car owners to repair and to modify their cars. "Right to Repair" should provide the owners of these machines with tools and information by which they can learn and can be successful fixing. And yes, users will make mistakes and break things. Part of the learning process is learning what does not work as well as what does work.
 

IndyJay

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
495
Location
S.E. Indiana
Tractor
Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
You're assuming that all mechanics (shadetree or professional) know how to troubleshoot, and that's not always the case, especially as motor vehicles become more complex. We've all seen dealer mechanics who just throw parts at a piece of equipment, let alone owners trying to DIY repair.

Yes, having the ability to read and interpret codes is a big step forward but it's not going to magically transform a hack into an expert. I wish modern products didn't have to be so complicated, but that's life in the 21st century.
Why does it have to be all or nothing?
 

PILOON

Super Star Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
10,425
Location
North of Mtl,Que,Can (Ste Adele)
Tractor
MT180D
The likes of Deere's are going to care one bit since they will gladly sell anyone parts even if they don't fix the problem.

Now the downside is that no dealer will credit you for any electronic component or module.
You buy it, you own it!
 
  
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sunandsand

Silver Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
104
Tractor
Kubota B2601
Right to repair and code readers are not a cure-all, but at least they give us a fighting chance to fix our own stuff instead of being at the complete mercy of the dealer or just having to buy a new one because the old one is unrepairable due to no parts, no tools, no diagrams, no schematics, no torque settings available.

Code readers tell us at least which direction to look in, which is a great improvement over "see your dealer" for everything.

A few years ago in the EU (which HATES cars), there was actually legislation pending to have manufacturers install tamper-proof hardware on car engines. There would have been NO choice except take it to the dealer. Needless to say, dealers and manufacturers thought it was the greatest idea since beer in cans.

"Right to repair" laws drive a richly deserved stake right through the heart of that idea.

If you are not inclined to fix your own stuff, that is entirely your decision. I, however, AM so inclined, and have saved myself a pile of money over the 60 years I've been twirling wrenches.

Anyone who objects to code readers and diagnostic software in the hands of "amateurs" should logically also object to selling these amateurs *any* kind of tools. After all, amateurs have no business mucking around with things they just happen to own, the only responsible thing to do is take it to the authorized dealer and bend over. WAY over.

One of the smartest things anyone can do in our technological society is to buy quality tools and learn to use them.

Best regards, and do have a pleasant weekend!

Mike/Florida
 

Midniteoyl

Elite Member
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
4,309
Location
N. W. Indiana
Tractor
Kioti CK3510SE HST, Ford 3400, Gizmow ZTR, Simplicity 7016H
Have no idea why anyone would be against this. Except for someone who benefits from us not having the right to repair. Or maybe those in favor of a nanny state.
 
 
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