Road.....

JimMorrissey · Jan 12, 2005

My engineer is stating that I "need 18 inches of gravel and geotextile fabric" for my new road. I find this outragous and a waste of resouces. They are saying "that's what the town specifies". It seems to me that they are thinking about a real "road" with pavement....a real town road. This is just going to be a 20' gravel access road to four 12' driveways directly off the main paved road. This will not be a "town road" and I will be responsible for maintenance. Is it just me, or does 18" base seem nuts to you too?

This road will access four homes through an old farm field. The field has a fair bit of top soil and a mix of clay. Old growth grass now resides on top with a mix of large and small rocks. Drainage is OK/poor (clay) and the soil is on the wetter side due to the area's drainage some months of the year. The topography is generally flat.

Thanks for any input.

Jim

ronjhall · Jan 12, 2005

Jim
I do not know the code in your area. But here in Michigan when going from a driveway, to one house, to a road to multiple homes. The code changes to similar to what you are being asked to do.
The town is looking at long term maintenance. If you sell your place. Will new owner be responsible for upkeep?

BB_TX · Jan 12, 2005

I think Ron is right on. The fact that it serves 4 homes makes it more like a public road than a private one. Who actually owns the property that the road will be on? Does each home own part of it? Who will maintain it if one or more of the owners sell? The city code is trying to protect itself years down the road, no pun intended.

JimMorrissey · Jan 12, 2005

Ron,

The access road will cross my property and the four homes in the back will have a right-of-way. The road will be L shaped, with the homes along the long part of the L. Each person who lives further back will have a right-of-way across everybody's land they cross to get to theirs. Initially, I will be responsible for the road until the home owners association takes over when the last house is complete and sold.

My issue is 18" of gravel on top of geotextile.....! I could see maybe geotextile with 8-10" or just gravel at 18", but both /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif That just seems like total overkill to me. It's not an interstate.

Varmintmist · Jan 12, 2005

Lots of clay and poor drainage is what you posted. 18 in and geo tex is probably more than enough, but not a lot out of line.

It is a road that serves more than one house. The state/town has requirements. They still HAVE to be able to access it with fire trucks and equipment and know that they wont get stuck when they leave. If you want to build the development, then you get to build the road to their specs.

beenthere · Jan 12, 2005

Sure sounds like a lot, but from what you describe (4 drives and wet clay), I think your engineer is probably right. And I suspect he is going to error or fudge on the safe side. If he was to recommend less, and the wet clay takes over, then his reputation is tainted.
The fact this will serve four houses, and be assummed by an association, puts it in the class of being a 'real road', IMO.
I wouldn't want to risk the association suing me for a lousy 'road' to fix at a later date. If something happens (and on that soil under wet conditions, it might) with the 18" base, then you can say it is up to 'road' standards and couldn't have been planned any better than that.

JimMorrissey · Jan 12, 2005

Very true and excellent advice. However, it was my understanding that the fabric allows for roughly a 30% reduction in gravel. I certainly don't want any trouble with the road in the future, but also don't want to spend an extra 10K if I don't have to. -I can see 18" of gravel with no fabric. The fabric is the key part.....amazing stuff.

UPDATE: My engineer is now back peddling and saying that the specs "actually" call for 12" with geotextile fabric. That is more like it IMO. That's a big difference over nearly 1/4 mile in time and materials /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

LarryD · Jan 12, 2005

we constantly question our engineers requirements. I know they like to build in a fudge factor but it always boils down to money...ours-not thiers.

Currmudgeon · Jan 12, 2005

( My engineer is now back peddling and saying that the specs "actually" call for 12" with geotextile fabric. That is more like it IMO. That's a big difference over nearly 1/4 mile in time and materials /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

That is a big difference, and sounds more reasonable from my desk halfway across the galaxy.

What does the ordinance actually say? What does the City/County Engineer actually say?

btolle · Jan 12, 2005

( What does the ordinance actually say? What does the City/County Engineer actually say?
)

Just ask the engineer for a copy of the complet ordinance or specification and read it for yourself.

There may be cheaper alternatives listed in the specification.

Just because somebody (even an engineer) says so does not guarantee that he is correct. And if he is already backpeddling it's time to find out for sure what it really says before you start spending money.

Bill Tolle

JimMorrissey · Jan 12, 2005

12 inches with Geotextile sounds good to me. Their fudge factor seems to put a fairly serious financial factor on my shoulders. They get annoyed when you question them too....

If I find there are places that seem overly moist, I will dig to 18". If the subsoil looks nice and stable and compacts well with limited clay/water I'll go 12".

I will be certain to document which sections of the road have which profile.

I don't want to build a weak or cheap roadbed, I just don't need to build an Freeway.

beenthere · Jan 12, 2005

Adding tile to drain the area well under the roadbed and along the road would go a long way to keeping the road in good condition and avoid frost heaving.

SPIKER · Jan 12, 2005

what about spetic systems and or wells ?

something that you must think about FIRST if you can't get permits for that then you are thinking abit ahead of you're self... I'm sure you probably already have gone to the zoneing board and checked to make sure there is no farm act keeping the land form being developed?

anyhow the 12" and textile sounds normal to me. depending on top coat... asphault or concrete, tar & chip or simply stone?

anyhow keep all things in perspective, when we are gone what will we leave behind us?

MarkM /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

JimMorrissey · Jan 12, 2005

I wouldn't be getting this far into road construction if we hadn't dealt with septic and well locations. Those are the most basic of hurtles to jump. Engineering is nearly complete and we have no problems on that end. The only hurtle now is getting a "road cut" permit from the town at the location we want.

We will be connecting to the town's sewer system about 450' down the road. That doesn't include the 1,500 feet of sewer line on my property and the thousands of feet of conduit for the utilities. Of course, each (phone, power, cable) has to have it's own 4" conduit at different levels of the trench /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif. Not gunna be cheap, but I'll be getting plenty o' seat time, that's for sure /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Soundguy · Jan 12, 2005

I'm a ce.. I see this all the time. It really depends on how that area is platted and deeded. If it has been recorded as a prescriptive road.. it could indeed be held to DOT specs if road repair is made. The dirt road that passes by our office is a prescriptive road.. though is considered private.... same rules.

You will also find just about anything that joins a DOT governed road either needs an approved apron.. or in the case where no entry was recorded.. they may make you do 'real' roadwork.

You can always try to get a variance... I'd suggest finding out what kind of meal or alcohol your towns public works director likes.. then send him a gift basket to his home with a nice 'hello' card. Then show up to his office in a few days and real nicely ask if he could help out a citizen in need with a real minor issue. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy

JimMorrissey · Jan 16, 2005

To clarify:

The town/engineers request is to use crushed stone, not graded "bank gravel".

I would like your thoughts on the use of clean graded gravel fill as my road base instead of 3" or 4" crushed stone. Crushed stone is very expensive and I'll be needing over 1300 yards of material over geotexile fabric. I've used gravel before with excellent results, but my town and engineers seem to feel construction costs are irrelevant. What do you think on the gravel base?

It's about $4 a ton vs. $9 a ton for crushed stone.

vtdiesel · Jan 17, 2005

I have been in the testing business for 25 years in massachussetts
and 18" of good Clean(<10% passing #200 sieve) gravel will work fine.
The key is to allow water to drain away so it not there to freeze and create heaving. Crowning the clay before placing the gravel will also help and keep the edges of the road sloping away. The geogrid is a good idea if the clay is at all soft.
good luck

CajunRider · Jan 26, 2005

( I'd suggest finding out what kind of meal or alcohol your towns public works director likes.. then send him a gift basket to his home with a nice 'hello' card. )

Are you sure you don't live in Louisiana?

My subdivision has about a mile of private road. When it was built the developer put only 12" of gravel down without the cloth. With the soft subsoil down here we will soon have to add another 12" to keep our road serviceable.