Rolled my kubota 7800... Now it wont turn over. Please HELP

[My Hoe]

OK guys sorry I kept you in suspense for so long. I ran the tractor for approximately 20 hours on three cylinders because I didn't have time to put it in the shop. I started it up on the morning I was going to take it in to the shop. I left it idling while I went and hooked up to the trailer. when I came back it had dumped a bunch of fuel into the oil pan and puked a bunch of fuel/oil out of the exhaust. I winched her on the trailer got it to the shop took all the injectors out and went and had them tested. One was stuck closed. I suspected I blew some rings so I bought a compression tester and none of the fittings wood fit in the glow plug or injector holes. So I took the head off took the oil pan off and pulled all the Pistons no broke rings. Put it all back together got it started and it ran for 10 minutes and then got a bunch of fuel in the oil in the pan again. The kubota service man said it was most likely the fuel pump was letting fuel passed into the oil. Spent another hundred dollars on a new pump after spending close to 700 on rings connecting rod bearings and a head gasket got the new pump put on tonight. I got it started up and it did the same thing. The Kubota man said The only possibility left is The injector pump. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Holy CRAP that's a lot of work--TWICE! (It's no wonder we haven't heard back from you, sooner--LOL).

You obviously have really strong mechanical skills (and big ****s ) to just tear down your engine, as you did--Kudos!.

But it leaves me confused (no offense). IIRC, the tractor rolled, and most folks (myself included) expected that (partial) "hydro-locking" had bent a rod.

(And again, no offense, but since you didn't say, I have to ask): did you check the rods, while they were out, for any bends/twists, "shortness," etc...?"

And how much do a set of rods cost?

Since the popular theory is that a rod is bent, were it me (lacking your level of internal engine work skills/experience and ***s), before taking anything apart, I'd have checked compression (with a fitting that actually worked--I've never checked compression on a diesel, so I can't tell you if it's done through the injector holes, glow plug holes, or both) and I would have had THE DEALER mic out the rods, to confirm that none are bent, before I went any further.

And I can't imagine how "the kubota" man sees the rolling of the tractor causing the injector pump to fail.... (Unless, as was mentioned, there is a seal/gasket between it and the block, and when one runs while rolled, that seal/gasket gets ruptured...?) Nor (as was mentioned) his theory about the fuel pump being bad....


Re: "Pattern Failures: Is the "kubota man" working at a franchised Kubota dealer?
The reason I ask is that even though I, myself, do not enjoy going to the (automotive) "stealerships," one huge advantage those techs have there is that they see (what, in the auto service biz) are called "pattern failures." IOW, repeated, typical failures that are associated either with a particular model or, in this case, a particular event (like a rollover). So, in such a case, where a general (non-BRAND-SPECIFIC-experienced) tech may do hours of seemingly-legitimate diagnostics, an (honest) dealer-trained tech can recognize a "pattern failure" MUCH more quickly (sometimes before it even goes on the lift), and thus, wind up being cheaper to fix than a guy who hasn't seen dozens of the same "pattern failures."


And since you replaced the rings, I have to ask--was there any type of "wear ring" or "carbon ring" in the bores?

And did you mic the cylinder bores, for roundness/excessive wear?

And did you hone the cylinders? I only ask because, IIRC, in gas engines, if new rings are installed without removing any carbon ring, by honing, you can end up with ring breakage, if the new rings are slamming into the carbon ring left in the "unswept" area of the bore, above where the old (worn) rings no longer "swept."

You stated:

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

While you've certainly been busy--and I hope all your hard work pays off--my advice would be to get this to a franchised Kubota dealer that you can TRUST, and have them do some basic diagnostics, starting with a compression check, to either confirm/deny the possibility of a bent rod. They (or you, given your skills) could perhaps simply replace the bent rod (if that can be done individually--if not, then all the rods) and you could be on your way (assuming wrist pins/bores, etc..., are not excessively-worn).


Oh--except for the weird fuel-dumping issue:

Was it running on three cylinders or four, either time, after you reassembled it?
Because if it's only running on three cylinders (and assuming the non-running cylinder had the plugged injector, AND ASSUMING the injector that was "stuck closed" was only INTERMITTENTLY not functioning) couldn't the non-running cylinder, NOW with a fuel-flowinginjector, cause unburned fuel to "puke" out the exhaust and drain into the oil pan?

And it's a mysterious coincidence that the tractor was running on four cylinders before it rolled over, and then developed a "stuck closed" injector, coincidentally, at the same time.... (Unless, in the process of hydro-locking, the extreme pressures also bent the injector pintle/otherwise damaged the injector?)

Again, an experienced Kubota tech should know what that's all about, IMO. They might even have a "known-good" injection pump they could hang on it, temporarily, for diagnostic purposes, and later, possibly, sell you, if that was the problem.

Best of luck!

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Holy CRAP that's a lot of work--TWICE! (It's no wonder we haven't heard back from you, sooner--LOL).

You obviously have really strong mechanical skills (and big ****s ) to just tear down your engine, as you did--Kudos!.

But it leaves me confused (no offense). IIRC, the tractor rolled, and most folks (myself included) expected that (partial) "hydro-locking" had bent a rod.

(And again, no offense, but since you didn't say, I have to ask): did you check the rods, while they were out, for any bends/twists, "shortness," etc...?"

And how much do a set of rods cost?

Since the popular theory is that a rod is bent, were it me (lacking your level of internal engine work skills/experience and ***s), before taking anything apart, I'd have checked compression (with a fitting that actually worked--I've never checked compression on a diesel, so I can't tell you if it's done through the injector holes, glow plug holes, or both) and I would have had THE DEALER mic out the rods, to confirm that none are bent, before I went any further.

And I can't imagine how "the kubota" man sees the rolling of the tractor causing the injector pump to fail.... (Unless, as was mentioned, there is a seal/gasket between it and the block, and when one runs while rolled, that seal/gasket gets ruptured...?) Nor (as was mentioned) his theory about the fuel pump being bad....


Re: "Pattern Failures: Is the "kubota man" working at a franchised Kubota dealer?
The reason I ask is that even though I, myself, do not enjoy going to the (automotive) "stealerships," one huge advantage those techs have there is that they see (what, in the auto service biz) are called "pattern failures." IOW, repeated, typical failures that are associated either with a particular model or, in this case, a particular event (like a rollover). So, in such a case, where a general (non-BRAND-SPECIFIC-experienced) tech may do hours of seemingly-legitimate diagnostics, an (honest) dealer-trained tech can recognize a "pattern failure" MUCH more quickly (sometimes before it even goes on the lift), and thus, wind up being cheaper to fix than a guy who hasn't seen dozens of the same "pattern failures."


And since you replaced the rings, I have to ask--was there any type of "wear ring" or "carbon ring" in the bores?

And did you mic the cylinder bores, for roundness/excessive wear?

And did you hone the cylinders? I only ask because, IIRC, in gas engines, if new rings are installed without removing any carbon ring, by honing, you can end up with ring breakage, if the new rings are slamming into the carbon ring left in the "unswept" area of the bore, above where the old (worn) rings no longer "swept."

You stated:

While you've certainly been busy--and I hope all your hard work pays off--my advice would be to get this to a franchised Kubota dealer that you can TRUST, and have them do some basic diagnostics, starting with a compression check, to either confirm/deny the possibility of a bent rod. They (or you, given your skills) could perhaps simply replace the bent rod (if that can be done individually--if not, then all the rods) and you could be on your way (assuming wrist pins/bores, etc..., are not excessively-worn).


Oh--except for the weird fuel-dumping issue:

Was it running on three cylinders or four, either time, after you reassembled it?
Because if it's only running on three cylinders (and assuming the non-running cylinder had the plugged injector, AND ASSUMING the injector that was "stuck closed" was only INTERMITTENTLY not functioning) couldn't the non-running cylinder, NOW with a fuel-flowinginjector, cause unburned fuel to "puke" out the exhaust and drain into the oil pan?

And it's a mysterious coincidence that the tractor was running on four cylinders before it rolled over, and then developed a "stuck closed" injector, coincidentally, at the same time.... (Unless, in the process of hydro-locking, the extreme pressures also bent the injector pintle/otherwise damaged the injector?)

Again, an experienced Kubota tech should know what that's all about, IMO. They might even have a "known-good" injection pump they could hang on it, temporarily, for diagnostic purposes, and later, possibly, sell you, if that was the problem.

Best of luck!

Wow, awesome responce! Helpful, without sounding like a knowitall or a-hole. Very impressive. (and hard to do)

 

[tombodett]

To: Myhoe: Thank you very much for your reply, and a thanks to all other interested parties. Every thing you asked about and suggested is spot on. Now to answer some questions:
First off let me clear one thing up. After hydro locking the cylinders myself and an older gentleman from church with lots of diesel experience, Huey, from church pulled the injectors to get the oil out. When removing the injectors one came apart, so Huey took them all apart and cleaned them with chemtool. Well turns out he got one wrong and it has been stuck closed since, hints the reason why its been running at 80% power.

So all that being said, I knew I had to get the injectors to the shop but had a backlog and ran the tractor against my better judgement to finish the jobs I had booked. On the morning I was taking it to the shop it was cold and the tractor was really hard to start. I gave her a "TINY" snort of either, got her started up and wemt to hook up to the trailer, came back and it had died and puked a bunch of oil/fuel out the exhaust and intake, and a lot of fuel in the oil.

I called some guys with experience and the local franchised kubota dealer, and the common consensus was since the injector was stuck closed and the fact that I didn't have the proper compression tester that it was the rings. the dealer did say there was a possibility that it was the injector pump but considering my lack of experience and the high cost of injector pumps, I regretfully now went with the rings being broke.

When I had the head off I took all the valves out and cleaned them, considering the tractor only has 604 hours there was very little carbon build up on the vales or the cylinder walls. I did check for bent rods and replaced the rod bearings. I honed the cylinders and checked valve clearance and got a new head gasket and reassembled. I had a hard time getting her primed and started and getting the air bled out of the fuel lines, but with a 25% gas and 75% fuel I got her started she was hitting on all four and sounding the best she had since my accident.

She was idling for 10 min or so and changed pitches and started smoking so I shut her off and went home and cried in my dinner plate. Went back after determining that it was a faulty fuel pump and spending $100 more to replace it. We went back out put the pump on and she started right up. It idled for 5 or so min changed pitches and started smoking again and I gained fuel in my oil again. Boys, its at this time that I curled up on the shop floor in the fetal position and had myself a good ol fashioned nervous breakdown.

Back to square one we go. After consulting with my local kubota mechanic that I have gotten to know really well over the past month and a half, we, As a team giving each other plenty of moral support, went back out to tackle the injection pump. FINALLY we got the pump pulled out after about a whole 10 min of grueling labor we got the pump off and as the picture will show, if I can get it to load, the problem was plain to see.

Operating psi for those injectors can reacH 2300 lbs and with an injector stuck closed that fuel had no where to go. The tech at the local diesel fuel system service shop said he had seen busted plungers, and barrels, but he had never seen one bust a complete housing. I told him well daddy always told me to find something I am good at and stick with it, turns out I'm really good at breaking things.

So all that being said I have the pump at the shop and hope to have her back up and running by the end of the week.

MORAL OF THE STORY:
Accidents happen. When they do, dont delay acknowledging why and what happened, accepting that your not perfect and future mistakes are inevitable, and do your best to repair the problem ASAP.

O AND ALWAYS REMEMBER IF YOU GET TO OLD TO CUT THE MUSTARD, JUST LICK THE JAR.

AND AS ALWAYS, THE LIGHTS ALWAYS ON FOR YA

 

[tombodett]

 

[tombodett]

This is the split in the housing.

 

[JRobyn]

Maybe "Huey" should have known better. My dad used to tell a story about his instructor in high school shop class (remember those?) that did a demonstration of just how precise the tolerances are in diesel injectors; he took one apart, rinsed off the diesel fuel film with a solvent, TOUCHED IT with his fingers and then attempted to reassemble it, all while being observed by a bunch of students. No go. He even had some of the students try. No go. The tiny bit of corrosion that occurred from acids in his finger skin reduced the clearance to zero.

Sorry that you got such a much more costly demonstration of how easy it is to seize an injector.

 

[tombodett]

Jrobyn The problem wasn't the pump or reassembly of the pump the problem is I had a plug injector and the pressure had nowhere to go. I talk to my diesel shop and the man said that not only was the pump it repairable but there wasn't a Nother pump available. I guess having to replace a whole pump is fairly odd. They said it would be 3 to 4 months before I could get a new one. So here I am stuck at square one. Tractor still in the shop and no injection pump. So the saga continues while I search for a used injection pump.

 

[ovrszd]

I think JR is saying the disassembly of the injector and "dirty" reassembly caused it to be locked shut. Thus over pressuring your injection pump and causing it to fail. I'm afraid that's a correct analysis...... Sorry for your hassles.....

 

[tombodett]

I yeah sorry Jr. I misread. For some reason I saw injector pump not just injector when you were referring to the tolerances your shop teacher was demonstrating. Wow that is crazy though, who would've thought. So I guess ol Huey got an 80% on taking apart and cleaning all four injectors with a bowl of chemtool and a couple of paper towels. O and it looks like I found a reconditioned pump on eBay that will work. It was only $800. i'll find more out on Monday.

 

[dodge man]

I'm not sure I agree with mishandling the injector causing the problem. First off isn't this an indirect injection engine? If so the injection pressures and injector tolerances are much lower than a high pressure common rail. Second, even if it was mishandled, I think it would just mess up the pattern but not plug it.