roof leak

[yanmars]

I have a gambrel(some call it a hip roof) "barn" with a shingle roof, a lean to with a standing rib metal roof that is attached. Never had any leaks until about a year ago I first had 5 inch D spoutings put on with similar downspouts running into underground pvc to carry the water away. Then added leaf guards to avoid climbing up to clean them in the Spring and Fall. Then added some snow guards so the leaf guards and spouting might not be damaged with a heavy snow. Each item done by a different contractor.
I am now getting significant water coming out of the under eave soffit, some coming down the inside of the lean to wall, much down the exterior of the wall. Can see the stains and drip marks. Also staining on the bottom of the soffit and spouting.
I thought perhaps the leaf guard did not permit enough water to enter and was backing up . Removed half of the same in the problem area but it did not help. I had removed all the staining to see if it would reoccur and it has. I have been on the roof. No holes or breaks that I can see anywhere. Slope is adequate. Really not sure what is causing it. Hate to remove the siding and soffit and spouting but may have to, to try to find the source of the leak. The spouting is continuous and almost 40 feet long.
The removal of the top of the exterior vinyl siding will not be easy. Called two of the contractors that did the roof and spouts. Paid them immediately upon completion of their work but neither will call back. I suspect since they know I have a leak they do not want any part of it.
My brother and I are capable of most repairs if I had a good idea of where to start. Thoughts are appreciated.
I had quality materials used, the roof was a 40 year shingle roof.
The underground PVC is not clogged and has guards inside to keep animals out. At the same time I had plastic field tile put in to remove any water around the building and it runs into a ravine but is protected from animals getting in and flows well.
Thanks

 

[bigtiller]

Gambrel and hip roofs are different.

 

[yanmars]

It is a gambrel but most people around here call it a hip for whatever reason.

 

[2manyrocks]

close up pictures? First guess is the water isnt entirely flowing into the gutters due to either lack of flashing or the way the gutters were installed.

 

[EddieWalker]

What is the flashing like under the metal roof and between the gutters?

The leak might be happening from the water splashing off of the gutters, or leaf guards, and bouncing back under the edge of the metal roofing.

 

[alexpops]

Having just had a new roof installed followed by new gutters & leaf guards, I would check a few things. First, how the gutters were attached. In mine, the gutters were slid up under the drip edge and screwed to the fascia with gasketed screws through brackets and sealant between the layers at the screw locations. If your gutters are spiked, the basic layering should be the same, but I don't know how the sealing is done around the spike holes. Basic water flow should be roof=>drip edge=>gutter.

Next thing to check is how the leaf guards are attached. 2 designs from what my research showed. #1 (better in my opinion) leaf guards are attached to the gutter itself, either with self-tappers or brackets, but the key being, any leakage from attachment just drops into gutter. #2 leaf guard is attached to roof itself (or at least extended up under 1st row of shingles between the starter strip and shingle). This second approach is prone to leaks if the shingles don't get sealed back down to the starter strip, or if (worse) the leaf guard attachment pierces/breaks the shingles allowing water to seep under instead of shedding over the shingles into the gutter. Can't help on snow guards since not needed in FL. Agree with 2manyrocks ... pics would be helpful.

Not sure what you mean by "inside wall of Lean-to", if it's the inside of the exterior wall (enclosed lean-to) the above could be culprits. If it's Barn wall where lean-to is attached, I'd check the flashing/underlayment/shingle overlap to see that water flows from Main roof to Lean-to roof with no ability to seep under metal roof at the transition.

 

[alexpops]

Any updates on your leak problem? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[yanmars]

I had the spouting installer out. He could not find the source of the leak. I had the ability to cut a number of 8x12 access holes from the inside of the gambrel roof building to look inside the roof of the lean to. Expected to see some water stains but saw none. Plan to take a mirror to view above where it is hard for me see.
May have to get a camera of some sort to give a better view.
Better at this point than tearing into the roof or soffit. Hope I find the source, then I can find a cure.
The access holes were cut after he was there.

 

[chim]

Some pictures would be great!

 

[yanmars]

A friend has a camera he can install in sewer lines to check blockage etc. It may work to check my area for the leak. I can put it in a PVC pipe to slide it close to where I think the leak must originate.

 

[alexpops]

The problem with roof leaks is that while you may see water evidence from below at say a seam between plywood panels, the leak could actually be higher up on the roof & traveling over/under the underlayment until it finds a break to the seam. I wish you lots of luck, but if the roof was fine before the gutters/leafguards/lean-to were installed, I'd concentrate on those aspects first. You need to understand what they did to the existing roof to attach the new elements, then working backwards, you can narrow down the most likely culprits. There are guys with extensive building experience on here. Some pics and maybe a description of the order things got done would probably save you a lot of time and access hole cutting.

 

[yanmars]

I have a flip phone. Does not really take very good photos and I really have trouble posting the same.
I work on the project doing various things nearly every day. Now that I have visual access to the inside of the lean to roof the next heavy rain I will see if I can see the source.
As far as sequence of events. The 38 lean to was open for 25 years. I first added the 6 inch continuous spouting with 4 inch downspouts to 4 inch PVC drain tile about 4 years ago. The 3 years ago the leaf guard. Then 2 years ago the snow guard on the standing seam metal roof. Then last year the the concrete floor was poured in the lean to. The 4 4x4 treated posts supporting the lean to were removed after perimeter blocks were laid on the concrete and then a 2x8 wall, 16 inch on center was placed and the 4x4 posts removed. The wall was sheeted with 3/4 inch plywood as I had plenty. All seam taped with water guard type tape on the inside and outside. Tyvec was placed on the sheeting before quality vinyl siding was added.
As I just recalled now before the siding was added I recall moisture getting under the Tyvac. I just then thought it must be condensation getting under there. It would dry up pretty quickly. In hindsight the leak was already occurring then I now believe.
That is the background. Will try to get some photos. I had earlier cleaned the staining off the soffit, spouts and siding when I removed the leaf guard to see if that caused the issue. The photos now will not show how bad it once was.
I will keep updates as I find out more, do more. Thanks for reading.

 

[chim]

Leaks are usually due to a simple error. Finding them isn't always easy. The wood trim above the end column on our front porch has water damage. After looking at it for a little while the source was obvious. The "J" channel at the bottom of the gable end drips water on the trim. The to-do list now includes replacing the damaged trim and re-doing the bottom of the siding.

 

[yanmars]

I do not have water there yet. Will have to wait for rain or pour water down with buckets.
My wife pulled up some photos of the "build" that will show the construction. Have not done a photo of the soffit stains. May help but mostly shows the water dripping out of the soffit, it is a continuous vent soffit. Leaks more away from the siding than close to it. The overhang is about 1 foot.
Another issue will be posting the photos. I do not know how, hopefully my wife will be able to do it. I can get some shots of the stains perhaps on Monday.
Thanks for all the interest. I need to get it corrected before continuing the project. There is a good roofing company relatively close. Will turn it over to them soon if I cannot determine the leak cause.

 

[yanmars]

I have some photos now. Hope to be able to send them late on Monday.

 

[yanmars]

Photos of the roof leak area, need help in finding the source. Unsure how to load my photos, hope this works.

 

[yanmars]

What I have tried to show is how the wall was done. The later photos show the staining under the soffit and some on the siding. The dark stain on the gravel shows how heavy the dripping off the soffit was.
The staining was much worse but I cleaned it off after a heavy rain. The lighter stain is from a light rain.
I cleaned it again today after I took off all the leaf guard. Seeing if that helps at all.
I can answer questions to help clarify anything, thanks for looking.

 

[chim]

It's tough not being able to walk around and look. The first couple of things that come to mind are the dormer and the tie-in to the existing structure. Can't tell from the pics if the dormer was part of the addition. A small mistake on a piece of flashing can be a big deal.

The color of the stains could lead me to think that the water is traveling between the layers of whatever the roof is made of.

I think you said there's nothing dripping inside. It would be strange, but did the roofer install ice & water & ice shield incorrectly?

 

[yanmars]

The dormer was there since the building was built in 1998. Everything was reroofed in 2016. All the old roof was torn off. No leaks then but it was only a 20 year roof.
The gambrel roof got a 40 year shingle roof. The shallow pitch lean to had 1/2 inch plywood placed over the 7/16 original decking as the 50 year metal standing seam required extra thickness.
Over that there was heavy snow guard type stick type underlayment. I think tar paper on top of that before the metal roof was installed.
At this point I have been unable to see any water marks on the underside/interior of the lean to roof. It seems that all the dripping/leakage is at the 1 foot soffit overhang. Will try to get a camera in there to see more detail.
As I have now cleaned off the staining and leaf guard removed and 1.5 inches of rain is forecast in the next several days I will see what happens.
As a side note. When the lean to was enclosed I made it tight, perhaps too tight. All plywood seams were taped inside and out. The Tyvec taped. The fan fold taped. Some areas caulked or spray foamed. Overall it may have blocked the soffit from letting air get to the gambrel roof and vents at the roof. I know when I cut out the access holes it let a lot of hot air come out from the lean to "attic". Don't know if that before that a "vacuum " could have drawn water somehow up slightly and into the soffit itself.
In my youth I worked for a roofing company. Did some slate, copper, standing seam work and repairs. This one has me and my contractor brother baffled.

 

[EddieWalker]

To me, it sure looks like an edge flashing issue. Did they remove your edge flashing when they installed the gutters?