Bigboyskioti
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Just wanting to know have you or would you weld brackets for lights on the roll bar? I'm wanting to put a couple lights up there but am not sure what it would do to the metal integrity.
ROPS Welding
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JerryG
Super Member
It is recommend that you don't drill, weld or cut a ROPS, but there are some that do what ever they want. It hasn't been very long since there was several pages to a thread over this. This topic is almost as bad as the hydro vs standard transmission topic as far as getting heated. There are lots of ways to make good looking brackets without welding on the ROPS. One member posted pictures of a novel set of brackets that he make a month or so ago. I have attached a copy of it. I'm sorry, but I forgot to put the members name on it. If who ever made it will let me know I will rename it.
If you have a canopy, the lights work better on the front of it.
If you have a canopy, the lights work better on the front of it.
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It won't hurt a thing,[this is assuming that you can weld,,without under cutting the bar or burning holes in it],,put your ground as close as you can to where you are welding,watch where sparks might go,might want to dissconnect battery too,,thingy
RoyJackson
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If it's a new machine, you may void your warranty.
If you do roll the machine and get injured, you'd have no legal recourse if the ROPS failed.
The problem with welding is you can create localized stress risers. These ROPS are made from high strength steel. The heat from welding can damage the metallurgical properties of the steel.
Personally, if I was going to mount lights on the ROPS, I'd clamp. If I had to affix the lamps to the ROPS, I'd sooner drill a through hole, chamfer inside and out (at least deburr) and bolt a bracket. But clamps works quite well, so there is no good reason to drill or weld on a ROPS.
It's your tractor...your choice...
There's a good thread in the Safety Forum about ROPS and roll overs. You can view it here: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/safety/97525-tractor-rollover-myths-facts.html.
Mars1952 has linked some very good information in a post on page 2 of this thread.
If you're considering welding on your ROPS, at least you'll be able to make an informed decision.
If you do roll the machine and get injured, you'd have no legal recourse if the ROPS failed.
The problem with welding is you can create localized stress risers. These ROPS are made from high strength steel. The heat from welding can damage the metallurgical properties of the steel.
Personally, if I was going to mount lights on the ROPS, I'd clamp. If I had to affix the lamps to the ROPS, I'd sooner drill a through hole, chamfer inside and out (at least deburr) and bolt a bracket. But clamps works quite well, so there is no good reason to drill or weld on a ROPS.
It's your tractor...your choice...
There's a good thread in the Safety Forum about ROPS and roll overs. You can view it here: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/safety/97525-tractor-rollover-myths-facts.html.
Mars1952 has linked some very good information in a post on page 2 of this thread.
If you're considering welding on your ROPS, at least you'll be able to make an informed decision.
What kinda high strength steel would that be there Roy? I bet they are just made out of plain ole steel myself,,it won't create any stress risers as long as you get a decent weld on it,,probably all thats needed is a good size tack,,I'd rather weld on something like that to attach a little light bracket than drill a hole,,now theres a stress riser for sure. [edit here,,,after thinking about that word high strength steel,,lets assume it is,,,that don't mean you can't weld on it,,,thats just a word which can mean alot or very little when it comes to welding,,all kinds of high strength steel, different grades,,main reason it would be used on roll bar would be it would be lighter weight than a piece of mild steel that had same strength,made so by alloy,and or a heat treat of some kind,most thinner high strength steels,can be welded with 6011 or 6010 rod even with little or no preheat,,let alone post heat,,some can't,,but if this roll bar is that hard it would be to brittle to use as a roll bar,,and we are talking about a few little fillit welds here probably,,if you wanted to play it real safe,preheat it to 150 degrees and use 7018 or 70S mig wire on it ,and keep welding to minimum, and again assuming that the weld would be neat without undercut,,,]thingy
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RoyJackson
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First, this came from a FAQ on one ROPS manufacturer's web site:
Q. Why can't I just make my own ROPS?
A. ROPS design and functionality is counter-intuitive or in other words, not what people expect. This is why most people, even Agricultural dealers, do not understand the safety principles of a ROPS. They think that a super-strong, rigid structure will afford greater protection.
A ROPS is not meant to be rigid and must be able to absorb energy, similar to the crumple zone of a car or a crash helmet. In the event of a roll over, this ability to absorb a discrete amount of energy, while maintaining a zone of clearance or protection, helps to prevent the tractor from pole-vaulting downhill. It also helps to prevent the energy generated from the roll over, from being transferred to the tractor itself. Not only does this lessen the likelihood of major damage to the tractor, more importantly, it reduces the likelihood of serious injury or death, as a consequence of the tractor's being torn apart. Many countries have stringent guidelines for the provision of ROPS, usually called a Standard.
In my experience (Quality Assurance, including Non-Destructive testing, in several fabrication companies), in order to meet the testing requirements and still be of a reasonable weight, companies use a higher strength steel. There's a trade off when selecting any steel.
The main thing is the testing to ensure the ROPS will work as designed (and material selection is part of the design), no changes can be made to the structure unless that change is tested as well.
Welding, obviously, requires heat. Heat does change the metallurgical properties of a material which can be stress relieved or tested to determine if the heat has detrimental effects to the design.
The Navy did testing on arc strikes (small areas that an electric arc briefly touched the work piece without fully welding...this isn't an uncommon occurrence when welding). These small spots were (in the high strength steels) hardened and more brittle. This resulted in cracking under load. Obviously, this wouldn't happen every time a welder touched his rod (or wire) to a work piece. However, we're looking at a worst case scenario (which is what happens when a tractor rolls).
Thingy, you can bet all you want. That's your option... But unless you know the design, materials and testing requirements, you don't know. If you do want to know, get a copy of SAE J2194 (Standard for Agricultural Tractor Rollover Protective Structures (ROPS)).
If you welded on a ROPS for a customer (I'm guessing you do fabrication work as a trade) and that ROPS failed, you may find yourself legally liable. I'm sure you're quite experienced and have "hands on" knowledge. However, when a person posts a recommendation or opinion on a web site such as TBN, they have no knowledge of the reader's skills (in this case, as a welder). That introduces another uncontrolled variable.
As far as drilling rather then a weld... A circular hole is still a stress riser, but at least the stresses are distributed evenly. As written in my original response, I wouldn't even drill the hole. It's just be the lesser of two evils (IMHO).
The operator has to depend on a safety feature design at the worst time. His tractor is about to test a safety device in an uncontrolled manner. Any changes to that feature may reduce the effectiveness of the design.
Q. Why can't I just make my own ROPS?
A. ROPS design and functionality is counter-intuitive or in other words, not what people expect. This is why most people, even Agricultural dealers, do not understand the safety principles of a ROPS. They think that a super-strong, rigid structure will afford greater protection.
A ROPS is not meant to be rigid and must be able to absorb energy, similar to the crumple zone of a car or a crash helmet. In the event of a roll over, this ability to absorb a discrete amount of energy, while maintaining a zone of clearance or protection, helps to prevent the tractor from pole-vaulting downhill. It also helps to prevent the energy generated from the roll over, from being transferred to the tractor itself. Not only does this lessen the likelihood of major damage to the tractor, more importantly, it reduces the likelihood of serious injury or death, as a consequence of the tractor's being torn apart. Many countries have stringent guidelines for the provision of ROPS, usually called a Standard.
In my experience (Quality Assurance, including Non-Destructive testing, in several fabrication companies), in order to meet the testing requirements and still be of a reasonable weight, companies use a higher strength steel. There's a trade off when selecting any steel.
The main thing is the testing to ensure the ROPS will work as designed (and material selection is part of the design), no changes can be made to the structure unless that change is tested as well.
Welding, obviously, requires heat. Heat does change the metallurgical properties of a material which can be stress relieved or tested to determine if the heat has detrimental effects to the design.
The Navy did testing on arc strikes (small areas that an electric arc briefly touched the work piece without fully welding...this isn't an uncommon occurrence when welding). These small spots were (in the high strength steels) hardened and more brittle. This resulted in cracking under load. Obviously, this wouldn't happen every time a welder touched his rod (or wire) to a work piece. However, we're looking at a worst case scenario (which is what happens when a tractor rolls).
Thingy, you can bet all you want. That's your option... But unless you know the design, materials and testing requirements, you don't know. If you do want to know, get a copy of SAE J2194 (Standard for Agricultural Tractor Rollover Protective Structures (ROPS)).
If you welded on a ROPS for a customer (I'm guessing you do fabrication work as a trade) and that ROPS failed, you may find yourself legally liable. I'm sure you're quite experienced and have "hands on" knowledge. However, when a person posts a recommendation or opinion on a web site such as TBN, they have no knowledge of the reader's skills (in this case, as a welder). That introduces another uncontrolled variable.
As far as drilling rather then a weld... A circular hole is still a stress riser, but at least the stresses are distributed evenly. As written in my original response, I wouldn't even drill the hole. It's just be the lesser of two evils (IMHO).
The operator has to depend on a safety feature design at the worst time. His tractor is about to test a safety device in an uncontrolled manner. Any changes to that feature may reduce the effectiveness of the design.
Taiser
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I drilled mine, it's not high strenght that's for sure. It appears similar to 4130 steel I use to work with in aviation but I'm not sure exactly what kind it is.
OP
Bigboyskioti
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Thanks for all the replies! I have been on the site for a long while just reading and soaking up some graet information. I didn't see the post on welding the rops.... And while I "think" I could do this without any probems. This is one that I'd hate to find out that I couldn't..... The angle and square u bolt idea was the other idea and seeing yours has sold me on the idea! Thanks again. I'll get these mounted and I have few pictures that I need to get on here. Thanks again! Mitch
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