Round posts & attaching girts

[opalko]

I have finally started work on a small (16x30) tractor & implement shed, single pitch shed roof. This will be made with post & beam construction but with round poles (they were free). My question for you all is what is the best method to attach the top plates / girts to these round poles. I have seen pictures of circular nailing spike grids in pole barn construction books (like these), but my local building supply places have never heard of them..! What is the next best way? I have also seen pictures of people using a chainsaw to notch out a place for the girts but it would appear if you did this on the top of the pole, and on both sides, it would significantly weaken the pole...? Lag bolts? Carriage bolts?

Thanks for ideas & help.
Robert

 

[BeezFun]

I would use pole barn nails for the girts, predrill the girts to make it easier to get nails headed right direction. If you have a palm nailer they're handy for pole barn nails unless you're a gorilla and can really swing a hammer.
When you say top plate, I assume you mean the headers that carry the trusses. I would notch the pole to the depth of one of the headers, presumably it's a double header so that means one of the headers would extend beyond the face of the pole. I'd fabricate the double header before you set it up there, then use a through bolt to hold the header to pole. You can also put a cleat under the header that extends past the face of the pole so it's supported by the cleat. Then use a bunch of nails or bolts to hold the cleat to pole. I agree with you that I would not put any notches in the pole other than at the top.

 

[cqaigy2]

Just like BeezFun says, that's how i've done a few, except didn't have the palm nailer back in the day, so it was swing like a gorilla! The girts are really just to hang the siding and help hold the post into position, square etc, but the headers at the top of the poles hold the weight of the roof structure and any live load. Bolt and cleat the headers and if you like liquidnails go head i've used it but i think it's over kill.

First time i used my palm nailer, i was kinda upset with myself for not getting one sooner. Not only is it easier, it's easier to be accurate.

 

[opalko]

I guess what I'm referring to the top plate is the double girt that the rafter sits on. My shed will be a single slop shed (lean-to) roof. Do I still need to notch it at the top?

 

[cyamaha2007]

Ive notched round poles for girts with a chain saw and chisel. That works but i like sawing a flat on the length of them. Last batch I called a guy with a portable sawmill. I loaded the poles and traveled to him. We sawed 30 poles in a hour and he charged me 100 bucks. It was worth every cent.

 

[DJ54]

If you choose the pole barn nails, or lag screws, do predrill for the lags. And, for both put a dab of bee's wax on the tip of the nail or end of the threads on the lag screw, you'll be amazed how much easier they will drive. Try several with, and without..., you'll definitely see the difference. I usually wear old jeans, or in cooler weather Bib's, 'cause there will be some get on the hammer head, and you need to swipe it on something to wipe it off, or the hammer will glance. Something I learned form my grandpa, who was a carpenter.

Bee's wax is cheap. Buy a toilet bowl ring, and you'll have enough for your project. I have several fiberglass handled hammers I use. I drill a hole in the handle end, approx. 3/8-7/16" X 2" deep. You can use a knife, or screwdriver to fill that hole with the wax, or the last few years I put a blob in an old ladle, heat with a propane torch to melt it. Put them hole up in a vise, and pour them full. I'm usually good for all day.

For lag screws, I'll melt a good bit more, and pour it in smaller prescription type bottles. Handy to carry in my Bib pockets, or nail apron, and not get all over everything.

 

[BeezFun]

I guess what I'm referring to the top plate is the double girt that the rafter sits on. My shed will be a single slop shed (lean-to) roof. Do I still need to notch it at the top?

If you put one header on each side of the pole, and through bolt it, you don't need to notch if you don't want to. I feel more comfortable with two types of connections on the header, that's why I like a notch. I think you'll find it tough to use cleats without splitting them because of the curved pole surface, so maybe that's not well spent effort. If for some reason you need to attach both headers to the same side of the pole, I would not be comfortable without a notch because you are creating quite an offset load on whatever fastener you use.

 

[forgeblast]

There are books about round post timber framing.
www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/crwoodproducts27.pdf/$FILE/crwoodproducts27.pdf here is an intro,
Amazon.com: Roundwood Timber Framing: Building Naturally Using Local Resources (9781856230414): Ben Law, Lloyd Kahn: Books
is the book by ben law

 

[clemsonfor]

Yea you either can set the beam up top with a bracket or you really should notch the post and set the header into it.

 

[opalko]

Ok, how does it work if the total span, say 30', is longer than a single beam? Do I have 2 beams meet in the center of a post and still notch it to have 4 lag or carriage bolts go through the post? I wish I could see a picture of such a setup.

 

[sd455dan]

I have finally started work on a small (16x30) tractor & implement shed, single pitch shed roof. This will be made with post & beam construction but with round poles (they were free). My question for you all is what is the best method to attach the top plates / girts to these round poles. I have seen pictures of circular nailing spike grids in pole barn construction books (like these), but my local building supply places have never heard of them..! What is the next best way? I have also seen pictures of people using a chainsaw to notch out a place for the girts but it would appear if you did this on the top of the pole, and on both sides, it would significantly weaken the pole...? Lag bolts? Carriage bolts?

Thanks for ideas & help.
Robert

Here's a shot of our 30x40 home designed and built (round pole) barn. We notched the top of the round poles and used inverted hangers for the cross poles- the bolts are just 1/2" thread all cut to length and bolted through the notched pole top. i wouldn't notch the poles anywhere but the tops either...

 

[opalko]

Thanks - I can't tell from the picture but are those 2 beams butt jointed in the center post?

 

[sd455dan]

Thanks - I can't tell from the picture but are those 2 beams butt jointed in the center post?

this may help we used hd 4"x 8" inverted hangers

 

[opalko]

Ok, I can see now. I guess what I was referring to was using 2x lumber for the beams and notching the poles (vertical poles).

 

[sd455dan]

Ok, I can see now. I guess what I was referring to was using 2x lumber for the beams and notching the poles (vertical poles).

i think the inverted hangers are actually designed for a 4x8 so it should work .. but as others have said notching the main poles anywhere but the top will weaken the pole, there may be other methods for cross beams to round poles , I considered making 1/4" L mild steel brackets and lag bolting the poles together but this was a lot less work and the brackets were only about $8 a piece...good luck with the tractor building , eventually hope to get a lean to added on- for mine:thumbsup:

 

[opalko]

I'm sorry to keep asking questions but is this a mortise & tenon type joint or does the beam simply but up to the pole and the metal hanger is the connection between the 2? My monitor can't see the detail of the hanger. Thanks again

 

[sd455dan]

It just buts up to the bracket and the bracket attaches to the vertical pole,
the inverted part of the bracket allows it to be nailed inside the bracket and they don't have to be bent to allow them to fit up to the vertical pole. If we had planned on a floor or really heavy loading of the horizontal logs , would use different mounting system.. the building is so tight it rings if you smack the vertical poles , but we used almost $1500 worth of concrete to set the poles 2' x 3 1/2' deep

 

[SPIKER]

I would notch the top (both sides) for the dual girts and thru bolt using threaded bolts. A few nails are OK to help hold them in.

After poles are set, use water level or laser level to mark all the poles set saw blade to cut the correct depth for the 2x material.

If you use a 2x6 on each side (between the girts) that will help reinforce the top of the pole some and create additional nailing surface for the splits/end joints. The 2x6 does not have to be much longer than the girts but COULD BE. Heck if you wanted to inset all the girts you can run the 2x6 fill length of the poles flush to outside of the poles.

For your shed the top of the round poles wont be hurt by notching them some as the trusses will help to reinforce them. Also use a couple doubled up 2x6 under the trusses between the dual girt to keep them from twisting and will greatly reinforce the building.

Mark

 

[MillWeld]

Not sure if this helps but when I built my sawshed I did as in the pic taken during construction.
I've built 2 sheds notching the horizontals and thru-bolting to the verticals like this and have had no problems.

 

[MillWeld]

Ok, how does it work if the total span, say 30', is longer than a single beam? Do I have 2 beams meet in the center of a post and still notch it to have 4 lag or carriage bolts go through the post? I wish I could see a picture of such a setup.

Here are more pics of my firewood shed showing details of the joining of posts. There are 4 posts in the back which allow for a span of about 30 feet.