Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE

   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE #141  

K5lwq

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Aug 6, 2017
Messages
3,814
Location
Mineola, TX
Tractor
Kioti LK2554, Branson 4815C, Satoh Beaver, Speedex
Thanks Ed, I just changed the last of the four fuel lines (not from tank to sediment bowl because I cannot get to it) and no go. Same thing every time. I’ve burned thru 4 gallons of diesel doing these tests and am now at the end of the road. However, tomorrow I will flush radiator and add new coolant/water 50/50 mix to see what happens. That will be Sunday. If that doesn’t work I’m going to pay the dealer fee to come get it and fix it then return it. The way I’m going replacing things I will have a new tractor in a few months! :)

Btw, has anyone ever had a regular old diesel mechanic (e.g., works on trucks) diagnose and fix their tractor?? I mean, I have an auto repair shop 2 miles away and they can get OEM parts as easily as I. Or are tractor diesels the sole domain of tractor repair (dealers) places? Just curious.
If the diesel mechanic is willing to work on it, absolutely he should be able to figure it out.

I would have tried to run it on a 5 gal can of fresh diesel as was suggested earlier. If it will run on that then you know you have a tank issue. Another thing I have done is add a cheap inline fuel pump to feed the filter. Do you have pictures of the injector pump? Sometimes there is a lift pump mounted on or close by.
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE #142  

piper184

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
335
Location
Central, ND
Tractor
Jinma 284
Speaking of lift pumps, does your tractor have a hand primer pump? This is usually a knob that turns to loosen, then the spring pushes it up. You open a bleeder screw or crack a fuel line, unscrew the knob and then pump in and out with the plunger to purge any air trapped in the system. If you forget to push the plunger down and tighten the knob it can be a source for air being sucked into the system.
Here is a picture of my injection pump. The primer plunger is the gold colored cylinder above and to the right of the red circle. The bleeder screw is the screw with a ring through it up and to the left of the primer pump.

I don't know how a loose or leaking primer pump could be temperature sensitive but we haven't determined for sure if the temperature is the cause or just coincidental to to run time it takes for the problem to show itself.

If you don't have a lift pump or a primer pump all this doesn't matter.

A couple of questions:
Is the outlet of the fuel tank above or below the level of the filter/and or/injector pump.?
Does the engine have any changes to the exhaust, more or less smoke, just as it starts to die down?
Does it make any unusual noises as it starts to die down?

One would think that if it is fuel starvation it would sound just like backing the throttle down and there would be no smoke. But if for some reason it was "loading up" like with a dripping injector it would kind of "bog down" and probably be putting out some extra smoke. Bog down and die down are subjective terms and I am not sure I could tell the difference except for the exhaust output. I certainly couldn't describe it in writing.
Sure wish I could get my hands on this one, it is quite the mystery....
 

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   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
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Danica

Danica

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181
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Ulster County, NY
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CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Wow, I hadn’t heard of this stuff but since I just replaced 4 fuel hoses, the fuel and air filters, blew lines with compressed air, cleaned rad screen and more. Fuel flow always fine like when it is dying down the stream out of filter is fine.

Any sense in just buying their other product which ‘cures’ this infestation without even checking would be cheaper and couldn’t hurt but now I’m resigned to sending tractor to dealer.

If you just dose your fuel with a biocide that will only kill the microbes, it will not remove the remaining algae, which will propagate new growth. Your fuel tank must be thoroughly cleaned, and then dosed with a biocide for at least three tankfuls. And never ever leave your tank less than 3/4 full ESPECIALLY during humid weather. If you have a bulk storage tank I recommend a vacuum/pressure cap - they are never freely open to the atmosphere. I recommend testing first.

We centrifuge all of our fuel. This is the centrifuge sludge tank full of dead bugs.


Omg, that’s awful. I’ve learned my lesson re leaving tank less than 3/4 full. This is likely the issue. Thanks again (especially for the pic which I should print and keep prominently in barn!
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
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OP
Danica

Danica

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Ulster County, NY
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CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
  • Thread Starter
#145  
OP
Danica

Danica

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Joined
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Messages
181
Location
Ulster County, NY
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CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
fascinating. seen with gas engines with bad head gasket or cracked head.

Any oil in antifreeze or oil getting fuller?

pop radiator cap and see if you see bubbles before it dies?

remove thermostat and see if results change?

defeat shut down solenoid and see if results change?

Best,

ed

Based on what I just read on another site (tractorforum I think) someone else pointed this out as a symptom of a warped head. That’d account for the problem starting when the engine gets hot. And as u point out, oil in the coolant (or Vice Versa?) means that the two are intermixing which would suggest heat related warpage or hairline crack or something hideously expensive like that. I will pursue the points in your post.
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
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Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
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Messages
181
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Danica,
You said that the problem starts as the temp reaches the mid-point on the temp gauge on the dash. Working on the assumption that the sender and gauge are correct, it is not likely that you have an overheating issue.
Before you get too far down the overheating rabbit hole, it might be best to get an infrared thermometer and check the temperatures externally. One with the little laser pointer is really handy to have if you don't have one already. Mine spends as much time in the kitchen as the shop. I should get another one.....

Just start the cooled off tractor and start taking readings at places like the head, the block, the thermostat housing, the upper and lower radiator hoses and the top of the radiator. This will give you a good indication of how the heat is moving through the system as it warms up. Diesels like to be warm so don't be alarmed if you see 195+F at the thermostat housing. As the coolant progresses through the radiator you should be able to see lower and lower temps until it gets back to the water pump.

If you don't see anything much over 200F by the time the tractor starts to sputter, you can be pretty sure it is not an overheat situation. One other place to check is the injection pump housing to see if it is overheating.

I would be leery of removing the thermostat unless you have a reason to do so. If you need to do a clean and flush of the system, by all means pop out the thermostat and check it in a pan of water on the stove with a good thermometer. You will be able to watch it open and close and observe the temps when it happens. I do this with new thermostats before I install them. You would be surprised at how often a new one is out of spec.

In my experience running an engine without a thermostat will most likely cause it to overheat. I have never tried it with a diesel, but I have seen several V8 gas engines overheat when the owner thought it was good idea to remove the thermostat "for better cooling". What actually happened was the coolant was flowing through the radiator so fast it didn't have time to cool down.

One last thought: I am not familiar with which injection pump is on your engine but I wonder if the governor is giving problems. If the governor is not lubricated by engine oil but rather has it's own sump it is possible that it needs attention. The Bosch like clone on my tractor has the governor and injection pump crankcase lubed by the same oil but it is separate from the engine oil. If it is not maintained, the governor can do all kinds of goofy things.

Sorry for throwing another "possibility" at you.

Thank you for so many good ideas. I don’t think I have a laser temp sensor like you described but I know someone who does and I’m calling him right now. Thanks again for the insights. Update— just bought one for $25 on Amazon. Super useful tool I have no idea why I didn’t have one!
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
  • Thread Starter
#147  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
181
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Speaking of lift pumps, does your tractor have a hand primer pump? This is usually a knob that turns to loosen, then the spring pushes it up. You open a bleeder screw or crack a fuel line, unscrew the knob and then pump in and out with the plunger to purge any air trapped in the system. If you forget to push the plunger down and tighten the knob it can be a source for air being sucked into the system.
Here is a picture of my injection pump. The primer plunger is the gold colored cylinder above and to the right of the red circle. The bleeder screw is the screw with a ring through it up and to the left of the primer pump.

I don't know how a loose or leaking primer pump could be temperature sensitive but we haven't determined for sure if the temperature is the cause or just coincidental to to run time it takes for the problem to show itself.

If you don't have a lift pump or a primer pump all this doesn't matter.

A couple of questions:
Is the outlet of the fuel tank above or below the level of the filter/and or/injector pump.?
Does the engine have any changes to the exhaust, more or less smoke, just as it starts to die down?
Does it make any unusual noises as it starts to die down?

One would think that if it is fuel starvation it would sound just like backing the throttle down and there would be no smoke. But if for some reason it was "loading up" like with a dripping injector it would kind of "bog down" and probably be putting out some extra smoke. Bog down and die down are subjective terms and I am not sure I could tell the difference except for the exhaust output. I certainly couldn't describe it in writing.
Sure wish I could get my hands on this one, it is quite the mystery....

Oooh, excellent questions…the filtered fuel exits at the top of the filter housing (it enters at the top on other side). You think air may be intruding due to slight warpage of bowl? I did replace bowl and filter.

Unfortunately, no this 1920 does not have any sort of plunger as you’ve described, just a bleed screw which I used extensive today after changing the braided (filtered) fuel line.

Re exhaust color, if there is any change during this cycle it is imperceptible to me.

Re unusual noises, no. I turn the tractor on and just come inside now having tested so many new parts etc expecting it to keep going after about 20 min. I can hear from inside (and out there too) the RPMs cycle down by about 1,000 and the back up then it will drop (for example) from 2,000 to1,700 and continue as it struggles to maintain the RPSs initially set for the test. I have varied the engine speed and when it is initially set high it takes less time to enter the “death spiral” than it does when set initially at 1,500. This is the basis for my heat-oriented explanation, parenthetically. I did just buy an infrared laser thermometer suggested by another TBN user and am going to do some checking in pursuit of that as a possible source. Still, if it IS hear related it suggests a warped head or other dreadfully expensive problem!

Oh, btw this tractor is NOISY and has been since the day I bought it. Compared to my tc45da it sounds like a jetliner. I’ve put only 300 hours on it since I bought it 6 years ago. Changed the muffler to no avail. Conceded that it is an older tractor (1999) and the exhaust is at face level unlike the boomer which exhausts downward, lower than the operator’s ears.

Thanks again for you cogent set of inquiries,
Danica
 
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   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE #148  

dirttoys

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Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
758
Location
Ozarks
Tractor
ac 170 bobcat 773 tak 235
Based on what I just read on another site (tractorforum I think) someone else pointed this out as a symptom of a warped head. That’d account for the problem starting when the engine gets hot. And as u point out, oil in the coolant (or Vice Versa?) means that the two are intermixing which would suggest heat related warpage or hairline crack or something hideously expensive like that. I will pursue the points in your post.
Yup, rare bird, don't get too far to doom and gloom, could be a head gasket as well. I would have certainly started with fuel, make sure you finish that thought as best you can.

Blown, cracked, or warped you will generally see:

Oily film in coolant or
Oil level rising and thinning or
white exhaust smoke and or
reduced coolant in radiator

Once you are certain you don't have a fuel issue;

Many parts stores offer loaner tools. You can pressure test the cooling system and see what you find. Youtube the process and reach out if you need help. After that (and any other great ideas here) I would bite the bullet and get a mechanic, or, if your area has other active members on here maybe reach out to them and see if they would take a look for a 12 pack or something. If I was only a couple of hours I would take a swing for you. Sorry this is such a pain.

Best,

ed
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE
  • Thread Starter
#149  
OP
Danica

Danica

Silver Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
181
Location
Ulster County, NY
Tractor
CNH TC40DA & Ford 1920
Yup, rare bird, don't get too far to doom and gloom, could be a head gasket as well. I would have certainly started with fuel, make sure you finish that thought as best you can.

Blown, cracked, or warped you will generally see:

Oily film in coolant or
Oil level rising and thinning or
white exhaust smoke and or
reduced coolant in radiator

Once you are certain you don't have a fuel issue;

Many parts stores offer loaner tools. You can pressure test the cooling system and see what you find. Youtube the process and reach out if you need help. After that (and any other great ideas here) I would bite the bullet and get a mechanic, or, if your area has other active members on here maybe reach out to them and see if they would take a look for a 12 pack or something. If I was only a couple of hours I would take a swing for you. Sorry this is such a pain.

Best,

ed

Ok, got my to do list for tomorrow. Will also go onto the ‘nextdoor’ app to ask generally if there’s a retire diesel mechanic out nearby that would take a look. I am at the outer limits of my mechanical diagnostician skills so really need a pro.

Tomorrow I will examine the radiator’s contents and conclude that if it meets any of the criteria you noted it could be bad news. That is sat unattended in hot weather with a half tank suggests that it is likely the goop previous poster sent a pic of.

Thanks again and I will post my radiator findings tomorrow perhaps with a pic of the contents.

Kr,
Danica
 
   / Runs nice and dies in 20 min UPDATE UPDATE #150  

piper184

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
335
Location
Central, ND
Tractor
Jinma 284
As for oil in coolant or the other way around, a good option is to have a lab test samples of each. They can detect cross contamination as well as exhaust residue or fuel in either fluid. One of the places I worked had it's own in house lab. We sold the sample bottles, two varieties of each. Physical return or prepaid postage. An empty bottle with label and instructions as well as an outer container. Pull your samples, fill out the label and return to the store or drop in the mail. It is amazing the amount of information you can glean from an analysis. I would guess probably 20 to 30 dollars per sample.
Good for a single use diagnostic or for regular monitoring of the engine or other fluids as well.
Odds are if you have a cracked head, block or bad head gasket an oil and coolant test will reveal it. But the test can't tell you which problem it is. But if it comes back clean you are pretty much assured there is no reason to pull the head for further testing.
 
 
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