SA200, what it worth?

[muddstopper]

I understand a lot of pipe liners use the octagon barrel SA-200s! Don't go by me, if you haven't figured it out yet, I'm a little particular with welding machines.

From what I have found on other sites, I think a lot of welders are a little particular as well. LOL
Even if I do end up with this machine, I never expect it to see an all day welding job. It just isnt in me anymore.

 

[Arc weld]

I wonder if the name plate was changed or something else? Also when did the F163 replace the F162? I know the green lights were 163's but I don't know if the early 70's also used the 163? Something seems odd with that machine. Who knows, maybe Lincoln had some prototype machines out?:confused3:

 

[Shield Arc]

Well my 1971 is an F-162, and my 1974 is a F-163. It could be as simple as a name plate change, or not so simple, maybe the original round barrel generator had problems, only thing that could be found was an octagon barrel. :scratchchin:

 

[muddstopper]

What little I know about the machine is that it came out of the coal mines of Kentucky or West Virginia. Could things of been changed, who knows. I know the guy that owned it had owned it for several years before he passed away.

Are the numbers on the barrel supposed to match the numbers on the nameplate. I could go and try to find the numbers on the barrel. I looked the other day, but didnt see any, they could be covered in paint.

 

[muddstopper]

Been doing a bunch of reading about SA200 welders since I started this thread. From what I have read, not all oct. Barrels came with aluminum shunts. seems some of the early ones did have copper shunts. Dont know if that is the case with the one we are discussing and wont know until it is torn down. mostly I have been looking at common problems and possible repair/parts cost. I figure if I have to take the head off to get it unstuck, I might as well build it. A simple rebuild would be around $500, but add machinings such as boreing block, valvejob, decking block and heads, etc, probably closer to $1000. Carb rebuild, Magneto work could add a few more $hundred. Anyways, unless engine is complete toast, should be able to get it running for Under $2grand. The 2 grand being worse case senario but it would be all new. Then we have the generator, What a barrel of fish hooks. New shunts, $500, New Exciter coils, $600. Only can hope the armature is good. I priced a bunch of other stuff too. Anyways, i could easily spend another $1-2 thousand on the Generator. I havent even thought about my labor. Whew! I guess, now the question is, If i do all that and the machine runs/welds perfect. What would it be worth?

 

[Shield Arc]

Now you do realize the SA-200s only put out DC auxiliary power?
The price has a lot to do with location. Here on the west coast they go cheap. In the mid west very, very high! East coast little more than the west coast.

 

[muddstopper]

Yea I know, 12v only. I am pretty sure I dont have any 12v power tools for it to power. Still making up my mine if I even want the headache. I think before I spend a dime I am going to do some ohm checking on some of the most costly vitals first. If they check out, then I will look at the engine. Will probably work on loosening up the engine by using a pry bar working the crank back and forth. I have done that on small engines before with pretty good luck. If i can get it to spin over a few times, and it has spark, might just get it to crank. If it cranks I will see if it strikes and arc and just go from there.

 

[muddstopper]

Well, I just got home with the SA200. Just for giggles I hooked a Battery to it to see if it would spin. Not a chance, but starter did engage. Tried a big crescent wrench on the front crank nut, wouldnt budge. It does have a provision for a handcrank tho. Turned the water pump by hand, it turns but feels awful stiff, BL had drained the water from radiator and the engine block a few years ago. Filled the cylinders up with a dextron alcohol mix and left setting in front of the shop. Also scraped off the paint on the generator barrel. 7074, same as on the faceplate, so this is the original barrel for the machine. Now if I can just get the engine to turn over, it might be salvageable. Getting dark outside now so tomorrow I will clean out a spot inside the shop and start seeing what I can do with the engine. Got to look up some manuals to see what is required to unbolt the engine from the generator. Any special tools required to do this??

More info, the mans son had been using this welder some until he also passed away about 3-4 years ago, so it hasnt been setting as long as I first thought. Everyone claims this welder worked before it was parked in the leaky shed. Hopefully the rats havent chewed it up, heard this is a big problem if these welders set around to long.

 

[Shield Arc]

Here print this out, or book mark it. This is from Kaye Sellon, she was born and raised working on SA-200s! Her dad is Bill Sellon, of Bill's welder Repair.
SA200 disassembly
Bill's Welder Repair Home, welder repair,welder parts, warranty, torch repair, regulator repair, gauge repair, Lincoln Electric, Miller Electric, Hobart, Victor, Smith, Purox, Rego, Harris, Thermal Dynamics, Thermal Arc, Airco, torch, regulator repai

 

[muddstopper]

I appreciate the links. Looks like its pull the generator instead of pulling the engine. If you hadnt of posted that link, I would have just pulled the bolts between the genset and engine and probably messed up more than I could have fixed.

 

[Shield Arc]

Yeah you see where guys cut through the vent fins on the generator to get to the bolts on the fly wheel. You're suppose to take a 1 5/8-inch wrench or socket to the nut under the exciter cone up front after removing all the bushes. Slide the generator housing back, then unbolt the armature at the flywheel.

I've never done it, but I read all the time in fact just today I was reading where a guy got an SA-250 with a frozen motor, he freed it up, and been using the welder for years.

 

[Arc weld]

The only time I've ever heard of an octagon barrel with copper shunts is if the original aluminum were replaced. The aux. power is 110 volts, not 12 but it is DC power so you need to use AC/DC tools. Could you be missing a number in the serial number or something? For a 71 it's got the wrong generator and wrong engine. Bills welder repair can probably tell you when code 7074 was built. I would bet the generators fine unless mice got in it and the engine just got water in the cylinders. You can burn an SA200 out but you've got to be burning a lot of big rods or a lot of gouging to do it.

 

[seaneastok]

mudd I have worked on numerous sa 200's over the years with the same problem you have with this machine. I have never had to separate the genset to get the motor free. I usually start by filling the cylinders as you have already done,letting it set,and using the front crankshaft nut to rotate back and forth until it breaks free. If that doesn't work, I then pick the whole frame up and block the machine for access to the oil pan for removal, and use a hydraulic jack with a wood block to alternate gentle pressure on the rod journals on the crank until it finally free's up. As far as how well the old continental will run after this,it just might surprise you. I had one machine (sa200 redface)that was stuck so bad that I had to beat the #3 piston out using a 10 pound sledge and a 2x4. Piston would move down a little..Then I would jack it back up a little and repeat..told him it needed a rebuild but he didn't have the money to spend on it then. He decided to go back to work pipe lining and is still using the same machine daily..and it runs fantastic to this day.

 

[muddstopper]

I went and looked again at the tag.
Model sa200-f-163
Code 7074
Serial#A 678276

Numbers stamped on barrel
7074

I only read on another site, (dont ask me which one because I have done a lot of reading and searching lately), that not all Oct barrel Sa200 came with aluminum shunts. At least not all the early ones. I havent tried to verify that. As for whether or not it has copper or aluminum shunts, It doesnt really matter to me. Maybe if I resell it, but I just want to fixer up and get it back to working. I always wanted a portable welder, but seriously doubt I will ever use it to its full potential.

As for taking it apart to unfree the engine. Not what I have planned right away. I have had pretty good luck unsticking engines in the past. Let soak, try to move crank, soak somemore. It usually doesnt happen overnite. If you ever get the crank to move that first little wiggle, its only a matter of time and a lot of wiggleing until its free. I have never liked hitting on top of the pistons with blocks of wood. To do so means you have to remove the head. If you remove the head, you cant test fire the engine to see if it will run without spending money on gaskets. If you have to buy a gasket set, you might as well do a rebuild. Its a 4cyl, rings and bearing aint that expensive. I have rigged up a air hose to screw in the head to pump air in with some success. Have to locate a piston not at tdc or bdc, add about 100psi of pressure and sometimes it will push the piston back down in the block. No shock and no pounding. I will only tearit down as a last resort.

 

[Arc weld]

The reason they made the octagon barrel was to have enough room for aluminum shunt coils. Something is definitely odd with your machine. The Continental is great engine!

 

[muddstopper]

Removed the hood and started the long road to unsticking engine. Put a 1 1/2 wrench on crank bolt and gave a little pull. Bolt moved but not the crank. Hooked up air line to sparkplug holes, one at a time. #1 cyl air wouldnt even flow around piston. Valves closed so no air at intake or exhaust. #2cyl, air blew out exhaust so this was probably the last cylinder to fire. Tried #3, again air locked, all valves closed? #4 cylinder aire thru intake os intake valve open. Went back to #1 as that should be the next cyl to fire, reconnected aire hose and left hooked up for a while. Eventually air started going into the oil pan so I know at least I got it loose enought to allow penetrate to get to/around the rings. Went back to #3 and did the same thing, leaving air hose connected until air started going into oil pan. Tried wrench on front of crank again, but afraid to put to much pressure on it becasue of possible stripping. Still no movement of crank. Removed starter and tried prybar. Bent china made prybar, but no crank movement. Removed bullet cover on genset. didnt like the look of the nut on the armature, little thin for applying any torque so I stopped. Filled cylinders again with dextron/aceton mix and came in the house.

One thing I noticed once the hood was removed. It seems at some time the fine adjustment has experienced and electric arc. Looks like it was tipped with a welding rod. Anyways, it has a burnt spot at around the 40 setting, little copper wires broke in this spot. If I get this thing running, pretty sure I will have to replace the fine adjustment. The range selector switch was in the middle setting and the other post where covered with paint, doesnt look like it was ever adjusted. I moved the range selector switch and it scraped paint off the contacts. Looks like a good cleaning up and it should be ok.

Removed fuel bowl, it had some liquid in it, but it didnt smell like gas. Bottom of bowl full of varnish. Kind of resin like. Rinsed it out and dropped in acetone to soak. Gas tank looks clean, dry and no visible rust. Safe bet the inside of carb has same varnish residue. Might remove and drop in bucket of carb cleaner while I work on unsticking the engine.

Going to try to turn engine over again tomorrow. If i cant get it to at least wiggle will probably pull oil pan and work from there.

 

[muddstopper]

The reason they made the octagon barrel was to have enough room for aluminum shunt coils. Something is definitely odd with your machine. The Continental is great engine!

Why do you keep saying something is odd with this machine. What exactly doesnt seem right to you? This is the first one I have ever laid my hands on so I certainly dont know what is different about it. It could be a one of a kind and I wouldnt know it.

 

[Arc weld]

I'm not the only one if you read Shield Arcs replies. His 1971 has the earlier Continental F162 and not the Red Seal F163. Very similar and both equally good engines. It was supposedly pretty common knowledge that the octagon barrel didn't come out till mid 1973 yet your octagon barrel appears to be a 1971?:confused3: Now you say there was paint on the coarse adjustment contacts? The contacts shouldn't have paint on them. Maybe the hood was changed on yours or somebody went to a lot of work to pass it off as an earlier machine? I don't have all the answers but your machine doesn't fit the norm. That's why I suggested contacting Bill's welder repair. If anybody, other than Lincoln, could shed any light on your machine, they're the ones to talk to. Aluminum shunt coils can be replaced with copper so without knowing the history of a 40 year old machine, who knows what is what.

 

[Shield Arc]

No I was wrong, I think it was Friday I went out and checked. My 1971 has the F-163, but definitely has a round barrel!
No need in calling Lincoln, nobody left there that knows anything about SA-200s! Bill Sellon, or Tom Fowler know more than anybody left at Lincoln.

 

[muddstopper]

I think its a safe bet that I will be finding out more about this machine as I continue to work on it. I doubt the hood has been changed since the numbers on the hood match the one on the barrel. I really dont think the previous owner of the machine would have done a lot of changing with intend to fool anybody. He was a welder/mechanic in the coal mines and he had owned this welder for a pretty long time. While its certain the machine has been painted, poor job at that, I cant really tell if its ever been apart. Of course I still dont know what I am looking at when it comes to the parts. I think I can already see its going to be a money pit and I dont know just how far I will go with trying to restore it. I think I can buy a good engine driven welder for what it will cost me to fix this one. Right now, its just something to fiddle with this winter. I am sure if i cant fix it pretty cheap, I can part it out on ebay.